Open Cast mining - Environmental Issue - Good or Bad? (1 Viewer)

[Peewit]

Hi there

I hope that this subject is in right area of the Forum.

Watched this program on BBC 1 last night (30 mins long) and it was an eye opener as to how Open Coal 'works' are blighting our landscape.

Personally, I think it is a strong subject which some people may find irksome, as it is close to their hearts

BBC i-player available to see now as attached below:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...Comeback_Coal/
__________________

 

[Barred Wobbler]

Lesson number one. Take everything the BBC says with a pinch of salt, particularly when it comes to industrial issues, particularly mining. The people who make these programmes know nothing of the subject.

You only have to look at the way they present the plumes of clean water vapour coming from cooling towers as pollution to have a hint of the depth of their lack of understanding. There is much more than that, but that is the most obvious exampler of their ignorance and laziness.

Some of the prime nature reserves in North East England, notably Hauxley, East Chevington, Druridge Pools and Druridge Bay Country Park have been developed in liaison between the mining industry, local wildlife groups and the county Council.

The photo below shows some of the "blight" to which you refer. It as ALL - the farmland as well as the pools of the reserves - restored land after surface coal mining. I took it 12 years ago.

 

[Peewit]

Hi BW

Thank you for your response - interesting to hear other views. your picture tells it all what results can be attained from land be brought back to its natural state.

I know the programs like these will over elaborate the seriousness of a subject, and it does stir things up for people especially anything to do with the environment. We cannot help but feel that way.

Just to mention, I used to work for Open Cast mining a long time ago in 1991 to be precise, (this is why i was interested in the program)
I have also been out for site visits a one stage, so I know what the scale the area is carved out in size in human terms. The vehicles used are massive. I am 5" 7' myself and I only come up to half way up one of the Trucks wheels, so it shows that discrete digging does not come to mind.

In the early 90's. Open Cast mining was never frowned on at all. It was seen as a godsend at that point in time.

It was seen as a healthy alternative to deep cast (which is redundant now) and seen in a positive environmental way. The land was going to be taken back into its natural from in 5 years, and that seemed to be the promise attached. All trees to be replanted etc..

The main thing that worried me about the context of the program is that the 5 years was not considered viable anymore, and some open mines where going to carry on for a lot longer -15 years being stated on the program.

That does worry me a lot! I want to know if the time for the land to be in use will be allowed is going to be a growing concern in the future. What will it end up being a Country Park or built over.

It was mentioned in the program that a forest of mature oak trees are going to be felled for a new site. If that is the case I do not know what I think.

I do think that this industry and it has its rightful place, and if planning permission is given all in sundry it will be bad news IMHO

I am interested in hearing what others say too.

 

[Barred Wobbler]

I worked in opencast from 1969 for many years but I can't agree with the statement that it wasn't frowned on in the 1990s.

That was the time when a doctor in Wales caused a national health scare with his (inaccurate) claim that opencast coal mining was responsible for the increase in childhood asthma. It cost the industry fortunes in combating the false accusation, because every protest group in the country and ever newspaper jumped on the bandwagon to add this to their "Hell On Earth" headlines.

I've worked along with the biggest trucks in the country by the way, and you are slightly (but only slightly) out with your estimate of tyre size. The largest trucks, the Cat 789 (of which there are only a handful in the country) have a tyre diameter of about 10 feet as far as I recall. These tyres used to cost about 12 grand each. God knows what they are now since the price of oil went up.

The industry standard workhorse, the 777 has wheels of about 8' 6" (I think).

As far as site duration, if the programme said that 5 years wasn't considered viable any more and that sites would go on for longer, then that's another of their inaccuracies.

The 5 year figure would be the life of the average site. This has been the time quoted for ages, but each site is different. Its life is a balance between the size of the workable reserve and the required monthly ouput. There have been long term sites with lives of over 5 years going back to at least the 1950s (before the mid 50s only small sites were operable). The sites in my photograph, for instance all had lives of over 5 years, and reserves of 2 million tonnes plus each. Other sites in Northumberland have had longer lives. Butterwell worked from 1976 to 1992 for about 12 million tonnes.

The fields in the foreground of the photo are part of a site known as Radar North that worked from 1957 to 1972. The road you see is a private tarmac road that was used to ensure that coal mined on the complex in the area travelled to the treatment works without going on public roads. It's a farm track now. Druridge Pools, also part of the Radar site lie just off the bottom of the photo.

Beyond these fields are the pools at East Chevington, which at the time of the photo were still filling with water. The shallow south pool is already full, but only the two deep water areas of the north pool are flooded at the time. Over 3 million tonnes were mined between 1982 and 1995.

Beyond that is the lake at Druridge Bay Country Park, part of the restoration of Coldrife site - 3 million tonnes 1966-1972. The lake was planned with the County Council in the early 1960s before the site opened.

Inland from north of that that the fields shown are the restoration of Ladyburn, Togston, Acklington and Radcliffe sites, all of which were returned to agriculture apart from the extreme north-east corner of Radcliffe which is now the Hauxley reserve, visible in the right of the photo next to Coquet Island. These were all multi-million tonne, long term sites.

In the left distance is another site, Chester House, showing as a sandy-coloured area. It was being restored at the time of the photo (1996), having opened in 1986.

 

[Adey Baker]

This site in Leicestershire was formerly an opencast mine: http://www.lros.org.uk/sencevalley.htm

Several of the best birding locations in our county (away from man-made reservoirs) are either current or former sites of mineral extraction; coal, stone, gravel and sand.

 

[Barred Wobbler]

Interesting website, thanks Adey. I used to work with someone who worked at the Lounge site in Leicestershire for a while in the late 80s.

"Prior to 1995, Sence Valley Forest Park was a large hole in the ground, inhabited by nothing more than workmen in hard hats and heavy machinery." This quote from the website made me smile.

I've had a few lifers on operating opencast coal sites in the 1970s and 80s when my life list wasn't as big as it is now.

My first Osprey was sitting on a post on a subsoil storage mound at Acklington in the spring of 1977 as I drove a land rover past it. My first Jack Snipe was on a damp grassy area at the opposite end of the job. Pochard, scaup and red-legged partridge are three others that spring to mind. My first great grey shrike was one that flew overhead as I jumped the fence one lunchtime at Togston as I popped home for lunch (I lived in a house at the edge of the site).

The area of actual activity in a site is fairly restricted at any one time in relation to the total area and there are always mini-havens for wildlife elsewhere in the quieter areas, areas which may include grass and other plants, bare areas stripped of topsoil, rock faces or waterbodies, often with reeds and rushes. No disturbance from people or dogs for years on end, with small pools collecting in certain areas against soil stores and elsewhere. I've seen curlew nests (I protected them from accidental disturbance with wooden stakes) on soil mounds and unstripped areas. We've had little owls nesting in overburden stores and little ringed plover on top of them (uncommon in Northumberland). Short eared owls were regular winter visitors, hunting for voles on the grassed soil mounds around the site boundary.

My weekly checks on the soil stores and fencing often produced a spring of teal or a few mallard and I've got photos of a pair of shelduck that were regular breeders near some pools on one site.

Sand martins were regular breeders in glacial sand deposits in the boulder clay on one site and I have known peregrine to breed on an operating site. The list goes on.

Opencast coal sites may not be pretty, but they aren't the sterile moonscape described in the popular press and broadcast media.

 

[Clive Watson]

What about Black Redstarts? Do they find the industrial landscape to their liking?

Lesson number one. Take everything the BBC says with a pinch of salt

Couldn't agree more with this. Has the standard of journalism declined over the years or have I just become more aware of how bad it is?

 

[Peewit]

Hi BW

It is interesting to hear about your experience of The Open Cast mines. I now know that you worked there too. I was there for 6 months under a contact but a lot of experience was taken away and a better understanding of how the lay of the land worked. You have strong memories about working there too.

You have made a lot of interesting points about many issues. It does show how the Coal Industry has affected many people, and yes it has brought some negative points.

The issue with the doctor, to me he was using the Coal mining Industry to lull people into a false sense of security. Anyone can claim to know all about the effects that Coal Mining may have on a person's health. Are they trying to scare people.

I alway understood that Deep mining has an adverse effect on peoples health many years ago and caused all types of issues with respiratory problems.
Health/Safety and auditing has taken up residence now, and there should be no reason for the same problems to occur these days (yes, and in the 90's)
I am sure that you will know more the 60's more than I do with health issues.

What I want to know is how much coal does a business know it is going to extract over 5 years. So you can check the levels that exist beneath the ground, but that can go for every acre of land in Britain doing the same thing? Can you enlighten me?

In addition to the comments here, I can believe that a 'true' problem that some people have live closeby are having their lives ruined by all the noise that it causes for them. Why build a housing scheme, and then have a Coal Quarry next door to the housing scheme

On the environment front, to cut down a few miles of mature Broad-leaf forest/Oaks trees over 100 years old - that can never be replaced. The landscape is changed forever. Maybe changed for the better but maybe not.
That whole change will affect the diverse animal species that rely on that area forever.

That is one thing I find hard to comprehend altogether. That was not mentioned in the program very much.

My additional view is I think it is choosing places wisely to remove coal sources. Just to dive in with two feet is not a good thing to do.

As far as site duration, if the program said that 5 years wasn't considered viable any more and that sites would go on for longer, then that's another of their inaccuracies.

My answer to what you have said here. Yes, i agree that 5 years should be 5 years now. The government should stick to their principles and not break the their own rules

It is a money making business and that it is what it is seen as. People and employment come into it too. There has to be some type of balance going on between business and the environment. I think it is a fine line between the two.

 

[Peewit]

Hi Adey

Your link is a good example of what should happen to a Opencast site with all thoughts placed on interest of the area for all wild life. The positive thing is that most of these areas seen to have waterways of some sort so that is a bonus to bird life and all the corridors that add diversity to the area.

I have an area close to me where a similar process is going on now. It will take a year or two to be transformed yet into the the extended area of the Reserve at Paxton Pits.
Paxton Pits close to where I stay is going through a process of change. It had been running as a quarry for many years. Now with support of the local community and all associated bodies including the council. Now the land is going to be 'taken' back to its original form.

http://www.paxton-pits.org.uk/quarry.htm

http://www.paxton-pits.org.uk/northern.htm

This information is taken off the link
‘Speaking on behalf of The Friends, which has over 2000 members, said “This is an historic moment for the Reserve. At a time when the district is facing unprecedented urban development, the landscape-scale of the Reserve’s expansion will mean room for wildlife and all who enjoy quiet countryside walks close to nature. Over the last few years The Friends has worked with all the agencies concerned to achieve this outcome, and we are especially pleased that Cambridgeshire County Council, Huntingdonshire District Council and Aggregate Industries have seized the opportunity to provide such an outstanding community benefit”.

This site has been mined for a long time too, and a lot of people have worked hard to give it a new 'boost' in the country Park stakes. It is a growing concern for people who want green space, and they are getting it now.
Just shows that regeneration does work in the long run. Yes there are some scary programs/press reviews coverage around, and I wish I knew what was true and what is false most of the time :-C

So Barred Wobbler has given me food for thought that there is some ‘overdone’ coverage of some issues and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[Peewit]

What about Black Redstarts? Do they find the industrial landscape to their liking?

Couldn't agree more with this. Has the standard of journalism declined over the years or have I just become more aware of how bad it is?

Hi Clive/Barred Wobbler

Sorry bombed you out here

love to know about the black Redstarts too. :t:

Heading towards the bird, and wildlife front once more in the mining areas

 

[Barred Wobbler]

Never seen any black redstarts on any sites, but I'd expect them to go for them. Plenty of skylarks and stuff. Some of my first ever snow buntings too.

As far as identification of sites goes Kathy it's certainly not a case of jumping in with both feet, and coal's certainly not under every acre of land in Britain, far from it. The coal is restricted to the well known and traditional coalfield areas. These are;

Kent (all covered by a thick layer of non-coalbearing rock and therefore not suitable for surface mining and closed since the last deep mines closed there in, I think, the late 80s);

South Wales; High grade anthracite there.

The midlands around Staffs & Leicestershire, up through Nottinghamshire into South and West Yorkshire and parts of Lancashire;

Cumbria ( a relatively small area on the west coast)

Northumberland and Durham (Coquet Island in my photo above is roughly the northern limit of the coalfield, where the outcrops of the seams go off beneath the sea);

Scotland, from Ayrshire through Lanarkshire, the Lothians and Fife.

Everywhere else is barren. (but apologies if I've missed anyone out - it's late).

Even in the coalfields it's not straightforward and the actual location and content of the seams has to be identified by drilling of boreholes.

Then there are the neighbours to think of, despite what the media and protest groups claim. Most of the towns and villages on the coalfields exist because the coal is there. They were built to house the workers at the local mines, most of which are long closed. These mines didn't take all of the coal. The thinner seams and the seams that were too close to the surface were left. Even in the seams that they did work sometimes as much as two thirds of the coal was left to support the roof. The people who live there now aren't interested in coal and they'd understandably be quite happy if everyone just buggered off and left them alone.

But we need coal. A third or more of our electricty comes from it. With the closure of most (not all - a few still hang on) of our deep mines and the huge contraction in surface mining since the 1990s because of a hostile planning system, over half of what we burn is now imported. In 1990 we imported none. Ironically many of the deep mines that were closed as uneconomic in the 1990s would be profitable now, with the current price of coal, but they are gone forever.

The problem is you can only mine the stuff where it is, and as I've said above, that is often close to people for valid historical reasons.

Even when you find it, it's not straightforward. There is the volume of rock to be moved to be considered, and this is expensive work. It's usual to have to move about 15 or 20 cubic metres (30 to 40 tonnes) of rock for each tonne of coal. The seams are thin in this country and there will be many metres of rock sandwiching them like the cream in a layer cake. Depending on the price of coal at a particular time a site may or may not be viable. The price is high now, so sites that only a few years ago were uneconomic are now becoming viable.

But again, the neighbours must be considered and it's not unusual to abandon large quantities of viable reserves because of the proximity of a village or even a row of cottages. Planning restrictions are strict and even when a devloper thinks he's complied with them in pulling together a planning application it's not at all unusual for the planners to refuse permission. Sometimes these refusals are overturned after an expensive appeal, often they are not. Who truly understands the mind of a politician? Northumberland County Council was found after appeal to be seriously at fault and in breach of planning regulations when it refused the Shotton site a couple of years ago. Council tax payers' money down the drain for the appeal, the developer's money down the drain for the same appeal.

Noise limits on operations are strict and I know from personal experience of cases where the goalposts have been moved after a site has been operating for some years under permitted limits, only to have them reduced to such an extent that machinery cannot operate and men are out of work. In the meantime the people nearby are sitting in the house with Eastenders on the telly, oblivious as to whether the site is actually operating or not, because they can't even hear the cars outside, much less the silenced equipment working behind soil baffle mounds a mile away.

Environmental issues are addressed at the planning stage of any site and part of the planning application is the inclusion of an environmental impact assessment that addresses, amongst other things, the wildlife and vegetation present, including woodland. I know of a site where 400,000 tonnes of coal were abandoned because of the presence of a plot of ancient woodland. The fact that much of the deciduous woodland had long been felled and replaced with spruce was irrelevant. The wood location and its understory was ancient, so it was preserved. The landowner who that part of the site was leased from thought this was crackers, but rules are rules.

Anyway, I hope this is food for thought. It's after midnight and I'm off to kip.

PS. Before anyone thinks I'm beating a drum here, I no longer work in the industry, I'm just telling it like it is - the way you'll never hear it reported in the press.

 

[Peewit]

hi BW

Thank you for that long explanation of what the Coal industry revolves around on a daily basis.. It is mind boggling how many things there are to discuss here as we both know.

My work with British Coal was based at Newtongrange, East Lothian, Scotland. Yes Newtongrange village is steeped in mining history, and was a (Deep) mining village and still has the same housing in the uniform rows from all those years ago

One of the defunct local Deep mines is used as a museum locally now - close to Newtongrange.

Sliding back into environmental issues what yourself and Adey have showed that their is light at the end of the tunnel.

Paxton Pits is going down the same road. Wonder what species will be found when everything is up and running once more. It will be interesting to know in the future.

Anyway I will let you get to bed and thank you for your time and information here.

 

[Peewit]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00fvdw1/b00fvdt9/Panorama_Comeback_Coal/

I see the link is coming up with an 'error' so I have posted it again.

Panorma from Monday night 1st December 2008.

 

[Barred Wobbler]

I mentioned above that I lived at the edge of one of the sites I worked on. Here is a photo I took from my garden. I think I used a 135mm lens for this, so it's a slight telephoto. I was able to take it because I was the only house in the vicinity of the site that didn't have a soil storage mound between me and the workings to screen the site from me. It was handy in a way because I could check on the site without leaving the house at night or weekends.

The truck is one of the smaller units we used, a Cat773, 50 ton payload and the photo was taken in the later stages of the site's working life, with progressive restoration well under way while mining of coal was still at full rate elsewhere. If you look beyond the truck you can see the edge of an area of freshly replaced soil - two layers of subsoil, overlain by topsoil. The truck is carrying overburden from the dig to progressive restoration.

The tree on the left was an annual nest site for a pair of kestrels. A pair of carrion crows nested in another tree nearby and there was frequent entertainment watching the dogfights that ensued.

 

[Peewit]

I mentioned above that I lived at the edge of one of the sites I worked on. Here is a photo I took from my garden. I think I used a 135mm lens for this, so it's a slight telephoto. I was able to take it because I was the only house in the vicinity of the site that didn't have a soil storage mound between me and the workings to screen the site from me. It was handy in a way because I could check on the site without leaving the house at night or weekends.

The truck is one of the smaller units we used, a Cat773, 50 ton payload and the photo was taken in the later stages of the site's working life, with progressive restoration well under way while mining of coal was still at full rate elsewhere. If you look beyond the truck you can see the edge of an area of freshly replaced soil - two layers of subsoil, overlain by topsoil. The truck is carrying overburden from the dig to progressive restoration.

The tree on the left was an annual nest site for a pair of kestrels. A pair of carrion crows nested in another tree nearby and there was frequent entertainment watching the dogfights that ensued.

Hi BW

Interesting report from yourself. It does show that wildlife does thrive even in the 'disorganized terrain' that OC mining produces. The Cat trucks are enormous in my eyes and the one in your picture looks like a dinkey toy - not.

It shows that some species of animals and birds are very adaptable to big changes in their domain.

I assume by what you have said that you worked outdoors in your job - I myself was the person who produced the technical drawings of the site in a comfortable office - not quite the same thing but still part of the working team.

For you to have BoP's nearby, (never seen a Kestrel yet), and simply to have them that close and in photo shot range was excellent for you.

How long ago was the picture taken?

You have really opened my eyes up a little more to the life cycle of a OC mine. Thank you for your information. :t:

Love to hear what others think, and their experiences too. I do not want to monopolize this thread anymore. Keep it an open book for others.

 

[Barred Wobbler]

That photo was 1984. At the time I was involved in contract supervision on that site. That is, the actual works were carried out by a contractor. It was my job to make sure he was doing it in accordance with the contract. A mix of outdoors and on-site office.

 

[Peewit]

That photo was 1984. At the time I was involved in contract supervision on that site. That is, the actual works were carried out by a contractor. It was my job to make sure he was doing it in accordance with the contract. A mix of outdoors and on-site office.

Hi BW

1984 was a long time ago. I wonder what the same site look like now - a wildlife wilderness no doubt. :-O

It sounds although you where outdoors (in an on-site office) a lot!

Where you something like a 'Clerk of works', and what his job would provide, and entail?

 

[Barred Wobbler]

We called it site engineer. Contract compliance, quality control, nuisance control, dealing with people, all sorts really. I enjoyed it. Plenty of fresh air.

That site now is all farmland with some well-developed tree plantations. The trees are a 60-40 mix of deciduous-conifer. It fills the google earth shot below.

I pass it most days, but I've not been back.

 

[Peewit]

We called it site engineer. Contract compliance, quality control, nuisance control, dealing with people, all sorts really. I enjoyed it. Plenty of fresh air.

That site now is all farmland with some well-developed tree plantations. The trees are a 60-40 mix of deciduous-conifer. It fills the google earth shot below.

I pass it most days, but I've not been back.

Hi BW

Success story for yourself in your area. Great google Earth shots.

Will you ever go back for a visit?

 

[Peewit]

This site in Leicestershire was formerly an opencast mine: http://www.lros.org.uk/sencevalley.htm

Several of the best birding locations in our county (away from man-made reservoirs) are either current or former sites of mineral extraction; coal, stone, gravel and sand.

Hi Adey

Loved to read about the success of your area.

It just shows that the land goes through some major changes and then it recovers once more.
:t:

Do you visit this area yourself now?