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Not a Goldfinch, but what? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter fishercl
- Start date
Katy Penland
Well-known member
Second vote for non-breeding male Scarlet.
JANJ
Well-known member
Thayeri said:
With those pointed tail feathers tips and greenish edged secondaries and primaries, contrast with blackish coverts, wouldn´t that be, or indicate a 1st basic male.
An adult male would have all black flight feathers without contrast to coverts, and rounded tail feather tips, or what?
JanJ
I'm glad that we are in agreement that it is a basic (nonbreeding plumage) male Scarlet Tanager, but I am not so sure that the bird can be aged as hatch year with such confidence. Yes, I agree that the remiges are juvenile, and the retrices are pointed.
However -- those solid black wing coverts look adult male. The even and bright breast coloring looks that way, and so does the bill color. So, if we are to age, the question is which characteristics dominate? Do we have a hatch year male that has prematurely and fully replaced its coverts, or a second year male that has molted back to basic in the coverts and body, but has not yet replaced its retrices and remiges?
For comparisons, here is a ST juvenile in Figure 4:
http://www.wbu.com/chipperwoods/photos/scarlettan.htm
About 3/4 down the page are nice photos of a SY in June, with comments on the brilliant new coverts, versus the juvenile wing feathers:
http://www.westol.com/~banding/Pictorial_Highlights_June_2003.html
As an aside, if you go down to the labeled figure 2, there is a nice photo of a 2nd CY male combining alternate plumage and juvenile remiges:
http://www.ofo.ca/plumages.htm
However, this is the really important one, from a bander education site, where they show a bird with the wing coverts (but not flight feathers) visible, and flat out say that because the feathers are all black, it must be an after hatch year male:
http://www.hbmo.org/BandingTest/banderquizAnswers.php
I went with the vibrant black wing coverts, cean and bright breast, and bill in calling the bird a male in nobreeding plumage, with no aging. Going with the information above, the bird is likely a 2nd CY, or SY, or A-HY basic, or whatever nomenclature you prefer, that has not yet replaced its flight feathers -- but will likely do so in the near future. A hatch year male should gradually replace the original wing coverts over the fall and winter, not have full fresh adult wing coverts in place by September.
All that said, I don't like how fresh the pointed retrices look, and JanJ may be right. Interesting discussion!
However -- those solid black wing coverts look adult male. The even and bright breast coloring looks that way, and so does the bill color. So, if we are to age, the question is which characteristics dominate? Do we have a hatch year male that has prematurely and fully replaced its coverts, or a second year male that has molted back to basic in the coverts and body, but has not yet replaced its retrices and remiges?
For comparisons, here is a ST juvenile in Figure 4:
http://www.wbu.com/chipperwoods/photos/scarlettan.htm
About 3/4 down the page are nice photos of a SY in June, with comments on the brilliant new coverts, versus the juvenile wing feathers:
http://www.westol.com/~banding/Pictorial_Highlights_June_2003.html
As an aside, if you go down to the labeled figure 2, there is a nice photo of a 2nd CY male combining alternate plumage and juvenile remiges:
http://www.ofo.ca/plumages.htm
However, this is the really important one, from a bander education site, where they show a bird with the wing coverts (but not flight feathers) visible, and flat out say that because the feathers are all black, it must be an after hatch year male:
http://www.hbmo.org/BandingTest/banderquizAnswers.php
I went with the vibrant black wing coverts, cean and bright breast, and bill in calling the bird a male in nobreeding plumage, with no aging. Going with the information above, the bird is likely a 2nd CY, or SY, or A-HY basic, or whatever nomenclature you prefer, that has not yet replaced its flight feathers -- but will likely do so in the near future. A hatch year male should gradually replace the original wing coverts over the fall and winter, not have full fresh adult wing coverts in place by September.
All that said, I don't like how fresh the pointed retrices look, and JanJ may be right. Interesting discussion!
Motmot
Eduardo Amengual
Thayeri said:
Hi Thayeri!
Check this bird´s tertials, they are fairly new with beautifully whitish distal edges. This feathers can´t be from a second year male. Why? This species 1st pre alternate moult includes some tertials among other feathers. Once moulted they are all black (also the rest of secondaries and primaries) so on a second year bird one can´t find tertials this colour, they should be black.
The tertials on this bird are still juvenal feathers, secondaries and primaries too, though still fairly fresh. At the end of September this species prebasic moult is finished or almost finished.
This bird still shows juvenal (non black) primaries, secondaries, tertials and primary coverts but not worn, so I´ll feel fairly safe calling this, as JANJ stated, a hatch year.
Eduardo
As Motmot said. AHY has all black wings without the contrast between the black wing coverts and the rest of the wing. The example you cite from the banderquiz has all black wings, not contrasting. Like many passerines, this species has a partial preformative molt from juvenal plumage in which some wing coverts and body feathers are replaced, but not tertrials, remiges or rectrices.
This plumage is often called 1st basic in older references, but note that it is not homologous with any other basic plumage in that it is acquired by a partial (not complete) molt.
This plumage is often called 1st basic in older references, but note that it is not homologous with any other basic plumage in that it is acquired by a partial (not complete) molt.
JANJ
Well-known member
Hi Thayeri!
See your point here, and as you say, the fresh looking pointed rectrices and, I would say,fresh remiges and primary coverts would look better for a 1st basic. I don´t agree on the bill colour, looking adult like, if not a photo/light effect it looks partly dark. The Holiday Beach link that mention "all black wing feathers" don´t allow us to see the remiges, because, that is what I think they are, black, and that´s what they really mean I think. Look at the bill colour!
The SY (and adult) prealternate moult is partial and also variable, as can be seen in the powdermill link. So a 2nd cy (SY) male ST would show, a brighter bill, worn and bleached remiges and primary coverts, pointed/rounded but worn tail. Question is, could a 1st basic male show a full set of fresh looking ad wing coverts in September?
Apparently:http://www.westol.com/~banding/Pictorial_Highlights_083104Page1.html
The theory is that the bird is still a 1st basic male ST.
JanJ
See your point here, and as you say, the fresh looking pointed rectrices and, I would say,fresh remiges and primary coverts would look better for a 1st basic. I don´t agree on the bill colour, looking adult like, if not a photo/light effect it looks partly dark. The Holiday Beach link that mention "all black wing feathers" don´t allow us to see the remiges, because, that is what I think they are, black, and that´s what they really mean I think. Look at the bill colour!
The SY (and adult) prealternate moult is partial and also variable, as can be seen in the powdermill link. So a 2nd cy (SY) male ST would show, a brighter bill, worn and bleached remiges and primary coverts, pointed/rounded but worn tail. Question is, could a 1st basic male show a full set of fresh looking ad wing coverts in September?
Apparently:http://www.westol.com/~banding/Pictorial_Highlights_083104Page1.html
The theory is that the bird is still a 1st basic male ST.
JanJ
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Hey Guys, I appreciate each of your points, but let me present an alternative point of view one more time. Because I think this is an interesting bird, and it is worth it! (As a discussion, not a right versus wrong argument.)
OK, the basics as I understand them are that Scarlet Tanagers go through three molts between juvenile and winter of their Second Years -- hatch year prebasic, SY prealternate, then SY prebasic, with many of the coverts and body feathers being replaced each time. The flight feathers are not however (usually) replaced until that third molt, after 14-16 months, which gets the bird into the ongoing adult cycle of twice annual replacement of coverts and body feathers, and replacement of flight feathers after every 12 months.
The question then is this a HY male or a SY male, either one of which could easily still have juvenile flight feathers?
I would suggest looking again at the link JanJ provides, then the third and fourth links that I provided. It is my belief that the photo chosen for the bander quiz was entirely deliberate in how it was cropped, and that they are referring to the wing coverts in their discussion. Check JanJ's, link and my 3rd again -- the HY male and both June SY's have extensively gray feathers in the median, greater, and primary coverts. All three birds have a least a touch of greenish in the feather edges, and the HY male in JanJ's link has more green left in there -- as would be expected for a HY bird in September. The wing coverts for the SY male in my second link are fully black -- but the bird has completed two full, post-juvenile molts by that time.
(In my view, the primary coverts for the subject bird are marginal, being darker than the linked birds, but giving the appearance of a greenish edge. However, don't some passerines retain their juvenile primary coverts even as they molt the other coverts feathers? With such contrast being used for aging?)
Based on everything I've been able to find out -- a hatch year male categorically should not have solidly black wing coverts. But then again, bird molt patterns don't necessarily follow the manuals! Those flight feathers look very fresh indeed. So, either we have a careful SY with normal molt pattern that has been exceptionally fastidious in his feather care,
, or it is a hatch year male with an unusually advanced molt pattern, IMHO. An interesting bird either way!
OK, the basics as I understand them are that Scarlet Tanagers go through three molts between juvenile and winter of their Second Years -- hatch year prebasic, SY prealternate, then SY prebasic, with many of the coverts and body feathers being replaced each time. The flight feathers are not however (usually) replaced until that third molt, after 14-16 months, which gets the bird into the ongoing adult cycle of twice annual replacement of coverts and body feathers, and replacement of flight feathers after every 12 months.
The question then is this a HY male or a SY male, either one of which could easily still have juvenile flight feathers?
I would suggest looking again at the link JanJ provides, then the third and fourth links that I provided. It is my belief that the photo chosen for the bander quiz was entirely deliberate in how it was cropped, and that they are referring to the wing coverts in their discussion. Check JanJ's, link and my 3rd again -- the HY male and both June SY's have extensively gray feathers in the median, greater, and primary coverts. All three birds have a least a touch of greenish in the feather edges, and the HY male in JanJ's link has more green left in there -- as would be expected for a HY bird in September. The wing coverts for the SY male in my second link are fully black -- but the bird has completed two full, post-juvenile molts by that time.
(In my view, the primary coverts for the subject bird are marginal, being darker than the linked birds, but giving the appearance of a greenish edge. However, don't some passerines retain their juvenile primary coverts even as they molt the other coverts feathers? With such contrast being used for aging?)
Based on everything I've been able to find out -- a hatch year male categorically should not have solidly black wing coverts. But then again, bird molt patterns don't necessarily follow the manuals! Those flight feathers look very fresh indeed. So, either we have a careful SY with normal molt pattern that has been exceptionally fastidious in his feather care,
, or it is a hatch year male with an unusually advanced molt pattern, IMHO. An interesting bird either way!
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Cf.
http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/photos/scta1.html
an immature male from late October. This bird is discussed briefly in the text at:
http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/98report/98report.pdf
http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/photos/scta1.html
an immature male from late October. This bird is discussed briefly in the text at:
http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/98report/98report.pdf
Very interesting thank you, but I don't know that I understand your point?
"Immature" does not necessarily mean juvenile nor hatch-year, and I believe its use to describe 2nd CY birds that do yet have full adult plumage is fairly routine.
What I also find interesting is that in the very brief discussion of Scarlet Tanagers in the records committee report (which does not explicitly discuss the bird linked other than to label it immature), they disagree with the report of another ST as being a "young male" on the basis that it had "entirely black remiges and wing coverts, indicating an adult". Given that no other details of the bird are discussed, I don't know why they would bring up entirely black wing coverts, unless they as well as the remiges were important for aging? Why mention the entirely black wing coverts for aging at all if we would expect a September hatch year male to have them?
"Immature" does not necessarily mean juvenile nor hatch-year, and I believe its use to describe 2nd CY birds that do yet have full adult plumage is fairly routine.
What I also find interesting is that in the very brief discussion of Scarlet Tanagers in the records committee report (which does not explicitly discuss the bird linked other than to label it immature), they disagree with the report of another ST as being a "young male" on the basis that it had "entirely black remiges and wing coverts, indicating an adult". Given that no other details of the bird are discussed, I don't know why they would bring up entirely black wing coverts, unless they as well as the remiges were important for aging? Why mention the entirely black wing coverts for aging at all if we would expect a September hatch year male to have them?
Motmot
Eduardo Amengual
Thayeri said:Based on everything I've been able to find out -- a hatch year male categorically should not have solidly black wing coverts. But then again, bird molt patterns don't necessarily follow the manuals! Those flight feathers look very fresh indeed. So, either we have a careful SY with normal molt pattern that has been exceptionally fastidious in his feather care,
Hi Thayeri
Taken from Pyle´s:
"The 1st prebasic (postjuvenile) usually includes all median coverts and 0 (about 5% of the birds) to 10/all greater coverts (29% of the birds), but no tertials or rectrices."
I guess this bird with all black coverts (new) and fresh but not black tertials, seconds., primaries and primary coverts is one of the 29% refered on Pyle´s book and hence a HY (1st winter) bird.
Saludos
Motmot said:
Well that is that, and answers my question -- thanks Motmot! And I appreciate JanJ, jmorlan and affe22 taking the time as well! :t:
I still don't get the photo cropping and discussion at the banding quiz site, nor the emphasis on "entirely black wing coverts" by the CA records committee when aging STs as an adult rather than young male, if a two month bird can have them, but Pyle in combination with those fresh flight feathers is more than good enough for me.
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