Nelson's Gull? (1 Viewer)

[Hugh Harrop]

Hi

I found this possible Nelson's (Glauc x Herring) hybrid in Lerwick, Shetland yesterday. I've seen a couple of Nelson's here in Shetland over the years (but never a bird as dark as this) and a whole suite of odd looking argentatus types on my many visits to the Varanger region. It does resemble one of the Nelson's depicted in Gulls but as you can see from the attached pix it shows more Herring features than that of a Glauc - other than the bill!

Pix also at http://www.nature-shetland.co.uk/naturelatest/latestbirds.htm

Would appreciate any comments.

Cheers

HH

 

[J Moss]

Certainly an odd looking beast! Could it be, however, that it's just in transition between 1st and 2nd winter plumage, still having most of its early plumage, but taking on the pink based 2nd winter bill rather quicker? Or is there a clear difference between a Glaucous and Herring Gulls bill in this pic?

Jason

 

[BobTag]

Hi Hugh,

I found a bird in early '04 in Bucks that I considered may too have been a Glaucous-hybrid, especially as the bill was also Glauc like - just about visible on the attached pic - though admitedly not as classic Glauc as yours! Strucutre and pallid-colouration also suggested Glauc influence to me on the Bucks bird, more so than on your individual...

Opinions were divided locally, some suggesting it's within typical variation of argenteus. Not sure where that leaves us using bill as a pointed to Glacu genes.

Hope this helps in the mix, BT

 

[JANJ]

I might be totaly of here - but my first impression when seing the first image was a GBBG in a rather poor disguise as a Glaucous Gull - meaning GBBG x GG. Obviously a 1cy (pointed outer primaries) which seems to have replaced all scapulars except a few GBBG similar juvenile lower rear scapulars. Bill pattern is similar to Glaucous but with the wrong shape, still in the first image comparing, not more or less parallel shaped but more in line with GBBG - or for that matter a sturdy Herring Gull. Shares some jizz with both GG & GBBG.
Other GBBG characters is the tertial pattern and the pale greater coverts with thin dark markings. Primary projection a triffle better for GBBG - slightly longer than GG give and take some variation.
Would of course be very interesting to see a open wing and some of the tail pattern!
Good images (as usual)!

JanJ

 

[mb1848]

Hybrid Glaucous x Great Black-backed Gull at Limerick. Wilson W. H. 1951 Brit. Birds, 44 (8): 286-287.--Description of an immature Larus marinus by L. hyperboreus watched in August, 1948 at Limerick. A description is given of a natural hybrid, the description agreeing with ?

 

[Hugh Harrop]

Have cloned in a presumed argentatus so the feather tracts can be compared...

Cheers

HH

 

[redeyedvideo]

Have cloned in a presumed argentatus so the feather tracts can be compared...

Cheers

HH

A very interesting and expertly made collage. The scaps are darker & the tertials plainer on the 'Nelson's' Also the smaller eye on a cleaner face look obvious. I don't think I would have given it a second look if the bill had been all black! Is there any occidentalis in there do you think? If GBBG was in the parentage I feel the bill would be bigger.

One thing that I had never considered before now is the 'Herring' Gull parentage of 'Nelson's' is likely to be smithsonianus a proposed new species.

 

[Hugh Harrop]

A very interesting and expertly made collage. The scaps are darker & the tertials planer on the 'Nelson's' Also the smaller eye on a cleaner face look obvious. I don't think I would have given it a second look if the bill had been all black! Is there any occidentalis in there do you think? If GBBG was in the parentage I feel the bill would be bigger.

One thing that I had never considered before now is the 'Herring' Gull parentage of 'Nelson's' is likely to be smithsonianus a proposed new species.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have had several PMs suggesting this could be an American Herring Gull. Surely its not!

I'm not claiming to be anything other than a complete novice when it comes to American Herring Gulls, even though I have seen a lot of them. I find some of them subtle to say the least and have a hard job defining some of the features from pictures of real 'smickers' and recent claims of AHGs in the UK (eg. the Stornoway bird).

To me, the tertials don't look good for an AHG and the pattern of the greater coverts did nothing for me in the field - and nor did the secondaries, the undertail, rump and uppertail pattern when this bird flew off (I didn't manage to photograph it in flight). Most of the AHGs I have seen have shown pretty good secondary bar or greater cover contrast and this is one AHG did cross my mind for probably the same reasons its crossing those who have suggested it, but I was completely put off by what I've mentioned above and then started thinking Nelson's / Viking-type primarily because of the bill contrast.

Cheers

HH

 

[Gentoo]

I don't think there any occidentalis parentage as suggested. The plumage is too neat looking for that and the head and bill should at least be somewhat bigger. After looking at the comparrison with argentatus, I am wondering now if it's some other type of hybrid, perhaps LBBG, with an unusually bicolored bill. Maybe. The bill and head on that presumed pure Herring appear a bit larger in proportion than they do on the mystery bird and even the primary projection appears just a bit shorter.

Although extremely rare, perhaps Herring x Iceland could be a possibility?

 

[lostinjapan]

Here are some of what I guess are Vegae x Glaucous for comparison.,,taken this March in Hiroshima.

It has that 'dipped in pink' bill..but otherwise does not really follow the patterns on coverts and tertials for American Herring.

As to your bird, I can see why some might think it was American Herring, but I don't think the contrast between the head and body are enough.

What were the rump and tail like..they would be the clincher.

Sorry the quality (and perhaps relevance)of my photos is not very good.

Sean

 

[Dougie Preston]

Although I know very little about larids, I'm sure this must be down to some kind of cross, with Glauc being responsible for that distinctive bill at least. The rest of the parentage may always be a guess though.

As for American Herring. While researching a poss found in Lerwick a few years back, I came across this website which shows just how tricky they can be, unless they are "classic" birds like the Stornoway bird. Just look at the bars or lack of, on some of their secondaries.

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull website/hsmitp82.html

 

[CAU]

One thing that I had never considered before now is the 'Herring' Gull parentage of 'Nelson's' is likely to be smithsonianus a proposed new species.

AFAIK Herring and Glaucous Gulls hybridize very commonly in Iceland, too (the subspecies of HG in Iceland is argenteus). Hybridization occurs also on a lesser scale in Norway.

 

[JANJ]

Nice comparison in #6 with the argentatus Herring Gull - which also, after looking again, suggest an Herring x Glaucous Gull hybrid for the subject gull. It is important to note characters that would clearly suggest a hybrid origin - such as clear characters from both species, but many times it´s very difficult to safely assign any certain species in a strange looking gull, it may simply be a very pale looking Herring gull - if that species is involved. In Hugh,s gull the bill (and tail?) is about the only suggestive character that would support Glaucous Gull influence. The obviously pale inner web to p6 (not shown in p5, hidden under the tertials) and p4 (both webs) is also suggestive of Herring.
So - can this, a fairly normal looking 1cy argentatus with an almost classic Glaucous Gull bill be a pure argentatus? You gett to see all kinds of Herring Gulls and the more you see - the more odd birds you´ll find, but I haven´t seen a pure looking 1cy argentatus with such a perfect Glaucous Gull coloured and patterned bill before, not that I can recall at the moment.

Some Gulls:

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/tomppa2.html

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/hannu18.html

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/hype5.html

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/hype3.html

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/hannu27.html

Note the greater coverts and inner primariy pattern:

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/hannu25.html

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/hannu17.html

JanJ

 

[NickPatel92]

Already posted this picture on another thread, but on the topic here's one of my pictures of a Herring gull at probably the same age, showing just how your's can't just be a normal Herring.

 

[CAU]

Already posted this picture on another thread, but on the topic here's one of my pictures of a Herring gull at probably the same age, showing just how your's can't just be a normal Herring.

I think that your gull is one generation older, i.e. a 2nd winter bird. Compare the pattern of the greater coverts and tertials:

http://www.gull-research.org/hg/hg2cy/1036dec.htm