Marsh or Willow Tit? (1 Viewer)

[Vick2903]

I know it is difficult to seperate a Marsh Tit and Willow Tit but I really want to know which is which as I have a pair or either that keep coming in my garden - I have taken some pics of a Camcorder and I am in the process of trying to get some still shots!
But is there anything obvious now that they obviously breeding?

 

[helenol]

Hi vicky, if you do a search on Birdforum, you will find dozens of examples of marsh/willow tits and the very very slight differences. Check out the gallery too, some good photos of both tits in there.

One difference is that marsh tits usually have a "glossy" black cap, and the willow, a dull cap. The willow tits bib is usually larger too, but all these differences can be very difficult to see.

I, for one, have started threads regarding these two, I have loads of marsh tits in the garden, and I couldn't decided whether they were willow or marsh. I finally had to admit defeat and accept they were marsh tits!

Regards

 

[shelley810]

I am not a pro on the UK tits, but another ongoing thread has got me doing some reading about them (so similar to my favorite black-capped chickadee)--- the noted difference between the two is the sheen to the black cap----Marsh tit has the glossy cap and the Willow is matt (not shiney).
shelley

 

[CornishExile]

A few things to look out for; Marsh has a smaller black bib than Willow, and a shinier black cap. Also lacks the pale wing panel of Willow. Which is all very well if you've experience of both and have something you can mentally compare your birds to...

The easiest diagnostic is their call - Marsh makes a characteristic "pitchoo", while Willow does a harsh "Chee-chee-chee".

On balance of probabilities your birds are more likely to be Marsh than Willow, as Willow Tits have declined drastically in the UK in the last 10 years. But I could be wrong (and for the sake of your garden list, hope I am!).

Jon

 

[KnockerNorton]

Hold on there CornishExile!

>Marsh has a smaller black bib than Willow,

this is variable, male marsh often have bigger bibs than female, so it's not as simple as that.

>and a shinier black cap.

Only really obvious in the hand, and useless with juveniles and some first winters/springs.

>Also lacks the pale wing panel of Willow.

some fresh marsh have a distinct panel, some worn willow don't.

>The easiest diagnostic is their call - Marsh makes a characteristic "pitchoo",
>while Willow does a harsh "Chee-chee-chee".

Marsh also do a very good 'chee-chee-chee'. Marsh have corresponding calls to all Willow Calls except the song - marsh never sing willow-type songs. Marsh have at least 3 song types of their own (too many to list here). Willow never does the pitchou call, so that's the only solid call identifier (if it does it, it's Marsh, if it doesn't, it might still be Marsh!).

Best pointers I've found are that Willow is more buff below (esp. on flanks), the white cheek extends further back onto the bullneck than Marsh, and Willow' feathering is looser, making it look more 'fluffy'.

 

[CornishExile]

Hold on there CornishExile!

>Marsh has a smaller black bib than Willow,

this is variable, male marsh often have bigger bibs than female, so it's not as simple as that.

>and a shinier black cap.

Only really obvious in the hand, and useless with juveniles and some first winters/springs.

>Also lacks the pale wing panel of Willow.

some fresh marsh have a distinct panel, some worn willow don't.

>The easiest diagnostic is their call - Marsh makes a characteristic "pitchoo",
>while Willow does a harsh "Chee-chee-chee".

Marsh also do a very good 'chee-chee-chee'. Marsh have corresponding calls to all Willow Calls except the song - marsh never sing willow-type songs. Marsh have at least 3 song types of their own (too many to list here). Willow never does the pitchou call, so that's the only solid call identifier (if it does it, it's Marsh, if it doesn't, it might still be Marsh!).

Best pointers I've found are that Willow is more buff below (esp. on flanks), the white cheek extends further back onto the bullneck than Marsh, and Willow' feathering is looser, making it look more 'fluffy'.

Sorry, I made that sound far too straightforward and without any of the necessary caveats. Really just intended as some general pointers. I never said it was simple or easy!

The only point you make I'd perhaps take issue with is the "chee-chee-chee" thing - yes, Marsh do a similar call, but I'd say it was different. But that might just be me deluding myself.

Jon

 

[Vick2903]

I have been watching patiently for their return and one has returned to feed - Now when everyone says it has a shiny head would that mean that it looks greasy? because if it does this one has definately NOT got a greasy head? and in fact the whole of the bird is pretty dull and not shiny!
I am charging camera batteries and will try and get a picture they have been in the garden at least 10 times today so I expect they will return!

 

[KnockerNorton]

Sorry, I made that sound far too straightforward and without any of the necessary caveats. Really just intended as some general pointers. I never said it was simple or easy!

The only point you make I'd perhaps take issue with is the "chee-chee-chee" thing - yes, Marsh do a similar call, but I'd say it was different. But that might just be me deluding myself.

Jon

Believe me, they can make very similar calls! Their repertoire is almost as wide as a Great Tit's. Even variation of the same call can be large between birds. The only concession I'd make is that Willows give their chee-chee-chee thing more often. You go and hang around a Marsh Tit's nest though, and see what noises they come out with!

 

[Touty]

I know it is difficult to seperate a Marsh Tit and Willow Tit but I really want to know which is which as I have a pair or either that keep coming in my garden - I have taken some pics of a Camcorder and I am in the process of trying to get some still shots!
But is there anything obvious now that they obviously breeding?

Herts only does marsh tit in 2005... willow tit has been just about extinct for 15 years (at least). If it's Willow Tit you'll have Lee Evans and all the other Herts year-listers banging on the door. Oh... and willow tits look scruffy... the cap looks like they need a haircut at the back.

 

[Vick2903]

Herts only does marsh tit in 2005... willow tit has been just about extinct for 15 years (at least)

Is this factual?

Over the next two breeding seasons, the BTO is looking for volunteers to help with a survey of "scarce" woodland birds. We will be selecting the sites based on recent recorded presence of the key species : Firecrest, Hawfinch, Lesser Spotted Woodpecker, Tree Pipit and Willow Tit.

The survey will involve two Woodland Walks through each of a pair of woodlands, one thought to contain one of the key species and another of similar structure. Fieldwork needs to be undertaken during the breeding season (late-March to mid-June) to record the key species and a selection other woodland specialist birds. Even if you fail to locate one of the key species the data for the other species will be important in understanding the current state of woodland bird communities in Hertfordshire.

The above was taken from the Hertfordshire News, Comment and Bulletin articles!
Herts Bird Club Grey Partridge Survey 2005

Which leads me to believe that there is in fact Willow Tits in Herts or why would they bother looking for them or have they been reintroduced!!!! :bounce:

 

[Touty]

Is this factual?

Which leads me to believe that there is in fact Willow Tits in Herts or why would they bother looking for them or have they been reintroduced!!!! :bounce:

Why go look for Gurney's Pitta?... cos it might survive (and it did... just). Sorry mate, WT is gonner is most of the south-east. Can I have some back-up please?

430 were ringed at Rye Meads from 1961 through to the early 1990s (including a dozen or so by me) ... none since. I had more hawfinches in a single binocular view (17 birds,' 84 Broxbourne Woods) than there are now present in the county. LSW is probably below 100 pairs and possibly below 50 pairs. Of the set (firecrest / WT, HF, LSW) firecrest is the last species I saw in mid-summer in Herts (2003).

 

[Richard W]

there were reports (at least one anyway) of Willow Tit in Herts in 2004.

 

[Vick2903]

Thank You Richard W

 

[Touty]

there were reports (at least one anyway) of Willow Tit in Herts in 2004.

Gurney's Willow Titta.... When did you last see one Richard? I saw them virtually every time (except bird race days) that I went out in the Lea Valley from 1974 'til about 1987... then... silence.

 

[Richard W]

I haven't seen one in Herts, only lived here 13 yrs....

last time I saw one was approx 5 yrs ago at a site in Bucks.

have got some Hert bird reports at work, will have a quick look tomorrow, I'm not so pessimistic to think they're extinct in the county, yet...

 

[Vick2903]

Right I have been searching the internet to try and find this out for diffinate
I have found the following

December 2004 Hertfordshire sightings Archives

27TH DEC: AMWELL: Bittern on small pit just N of public hide for c 20 mins (D Ling): WILSTONE RSVR: Little Egret (A Lewis): STOCKERS LAKE: 4 RC Pochard, 5 Smew, 3 Goosander, 5 Goldeneye (A Nasir): MUNDENS ESTATE: 10+ Green Sand, Water Rail, 20+ Teal (P Holpin): TYTTENHANGER: Greenshank, c210 Lapwing, 16 H Gull (over) (G Knight) 2 Stonechat, 3 Snipe, Kingfisher (S Pearce): BENINGTON: Willow Tit in Oxshott Wood,

4TH DEC: EAST HYDE: Jack Snipe on scrape, also Snipe & Grey Wag (D Stanley): POLICE PIT, CHESHUNT: 4 Smew (2m) (F Hurst): N MYMMS PARK: 10+ Bullfinch (inc some Northern Bullfinches), Buzzard, 2 Woodcock, 70 + GOlden Plover, 100 Redwing, 9 Goldcrest, 12+ Lesser Redpoll: AMWELL: 4 Little Egrets in trees along R Ask (nr Ash Walk), also 4 SNipe over, Kingfisher, 7 Goldeneye (2m), Water Rail (showing well from reed bed hide), 2f Bullfinch (D Wheatcroft) 3 Water Rails from reedbed hide at 1600, also 2 Wigeon from viewpoint (C Hughes): ASTONBURY WOOD: Willow Tit


So they have become extinct from January 2005 one month later

http://www.hertsbirdclub.org.uk/2004.html <----------- website where I found the above!

Sorry!

 

[Touty]

I haven't seen one in Herts, only lived here 13 yrs....
.

Thank You Richard W

 

[Andy Thatcher]

Found references to them being seen in Tewin, Benington, Astonbury Wood in 2004 on www.hertsbirdclub.org.uk

 

[Touty]

I've no doubt that sad, misguided and wishful-thinking birders continue to submit Willow Tit records for Herts. but the county is so well covered by some of the most accomplished birders in UK that I really have my doubts as to how less than a handful of short-lived birds highly-resident birds could hang on for more than a decade in groups of one at widely-spread sites in a county that covers 1600k2 and contains 1,000,000 people, 20,000 of whom are RSPB members.

Right I have been searching the internet to try and find this out for diffinate
I have found the following

December 2004 Hertfordshire sightings Archives

27TH DEC: AMWELL: Bittern on small pit just N of public hide for c 20 mins (D Ling): WILSTONE RSVR: Little Egret (A Lewis): STOCKERS LAKE: 4 RC Pochard, 5 Smew, 3 Goosander, 5 Goldeneye (A Nasir): MUNDENS ESTATE: 10+ Green Sand, Water Rail, 20+ Teal (P Holpin): TYTTENHANGER: Greenshank, c210 Lapwing, 16 H Gull (over) (G Knight) 2 Stonechat, 3 Snipe, Kingfisher (S Pearce): BENINGTON: Willow Tit in Oxshott Wood,

4TH DEC: EAST HYDE: Jack Snipe on scrape, also Snipe & Grey Wag (D Stanley): POLICE PIT, CHESHUNT: 4 Smew (2m) (F Hurst): N MYMMS PARK: 10+ Bullfinch (inc some Northern Bullfinches), Buzzard, 2 Woodcock, 70 + GOlden Plover, 100 Redwing, 9 Goldcrest, 12+ Lesser Redpoll: AMWELL: 4 Little Egrets in trees along R Ask (nr Ash Walk), also 4 SNipe over, Kingfisher, 7 Goldeneye (2m), Water Rail (showing well from reed bed hide), 2f Bullfinch (D Wheatcroft) 3 Water Rails from reedbed hide at 1600, also 2 Wigeon from viewpoint (C Hughes): ASTONBURY WOOD: Willow Tit


So they have become extinct from January 2005 one month later

http://www.hertsbirdclub.org.uk/2004.html <----------- website where I found the above!

Sorry!

 

[Richard W]

BENINGTON: Willow Tit in Oxshott Wood

that's about a 5 minute walk away :h?:

I should point out there are lots of birds I haven't seen in Herts o but that doesn't mean they aren't around, do see reports of them in neighbouring counties occasionally.

just think "extinct" is a bit strong when there are still recent records, as Vick2903 has shown.