Little Egret or Western Reef Heron (1 Viewer)

[Touty]

Hi All,

Here are two photos I took yesterday morning at Punta Barene (Gorizia), just about the most northerly point of the Adriatic Sea (in Italy). The pictures show a bird that has been present in loco for more than 1 year. The beak is very long for a (melanistic) Little Egret but not very heavy (as it might be in Western Reef Heron) but it is quite decurved. The feet are ridiculously large and the tarsi very heavy (which suggests WRH). There have been suggestions of LE / WRH hybridisation in Italy in the last couple of years.

I'd be grateful for your comments.

 

[cuckooroller]

Touty,
We are in the realm of pure conjecture here. To me this looks like an adult gularis.

 

[Edward woodwood]

can't see why not either Steve?

have that woodcock article but will have to post unless a digipic of pages is ok...?

email me

 

[cuckooroller]

Will write tonight Tim, however any form is OK as long as I can read the text. Thanks.

 

[Simonph]

Looks pure dark phase WRH to me...

 

[Julian Sykes Wildlife]

Agree with the above, the hybrids I find locally tend to look like this, and have the structure of a Little Egret as well.

 

[Sumit]

Hi,
Looks good for a Western Reef to me. If memeory serves me right, Mike Prince wrote a very educative article on the subject of distinguishing between the two on delhibird.org but I can't find it after the revamp of that site as delhibird.net. However, Mike's images are on line at:
http://www.bubo.org/photo/030507_WesternReefEgret/index.htm
and are very illustrative.
Cheers!
sumit

 

[London Birder]

Agree with the above, the hybrids I find locally tend to look like this, and have the structure of a Little Egret as well.

hi Jules, do the hybrids you've come across ever show any decurvature to the bill?

 

[Julian Sykes Wildlife]

hi Jules, do the hybrids you've come across ever show any decurvature to the bill?

Of the two I have now found locally both had the structure of a Little Egret including the bill, which is why I questioned the hybridisation theory to the relevant committee. To me they just looked like piebald Little Egrets and not the WRH's seen in Dubai a few years ago (apart from coloration). I think now the Spanish birds are touted as 'presumed' hybrid WRH x LE, since no one knows for certain.

 

[London Birder]

thanks for that Jules

 

[Steve G]

Of the two I have now found locally both had the structure of a Little Egret including the bill, which is why I questioned the hybridisation theory to the relevant committee. To me they just looked like piebald Little Egrets and not the WRH's seen in Dubai a few years ago (apart from coloration). I think now the Spanish birds are touted as 'presumed' hybrid WRH x LE, since no one knows for certain.

There was a "classical" dark phase Western Reef Heron paired up with a Little Egret in the mixed heronry at the Jose Antonio Valverde Centre, Donana in the spring of 2004 (the nest was visible by scope through the large west end plate glass window of the centre). I don't know if any young birds resulted. I think the speculation mooted at the time was that the WRH had accompanied Western Palearctic Little Egrets north from wintering grounds in Mauretania (??? -have yet to hear a better suggestion).

 

[John Butler]

Looks pure dark phase WRH to me...

I agree with Simon.

We have a dark phase WRH Egretta gularis gularis present in Doñana at the current time, last seen about a month ago, and the photograph matches the heron exactly.

By the way SteveG. The WHR at the Valverde Centre raised 3 young and they were similar to the photo produced by Jules, only with more varying degrees of white in the plumage.

Regards from Doñana.

John.

 

[Julian Sykes Wildlife]

By the way SteveG. The WHR at the Valverde Centre raised 3 young and they were similar to the photo produced by Jules, only with more varying degrees of white in the plumage.

Regards from Doñana.

John.

Hi John
Do you think these off-spring are the birds we are getting along Spain's east coast all the way up to the Ebro?. If so it would certainly give credance to some of the other species found in this area such as Marabou, Yellow billed Stork, etc.

 

[Touty]

Thankyou very much everyone. Most helpful. (Touty not 'touting' anything). ;-)

 

[Julian Sykes Wildlife]

Thankyou very much everyone. Most helpful. (Touty not 'touting' anything). ;-)

Ooops
Sorry for that it was totally unintentional

I am to humour to what Frank Bruno is to syncronished swimming :t:

 

[Touty]

I forward you the reply I got from Jorma Tenovuo <jorma.tenovuoATutu.fi> who wrote a paper on WRH ID for the journal 'Alula'. The Italian ornithologist Andrea Corso also expressed doubts on the bird's legs... which'd get you slapped in most pubs in UK. 8-P

Hi Paul,

Sorry for my late reply but I've been out for a few days. Interesting bird in your photos. You know, there are a few reports of hybrids/intermediate forms of Little Egret / Western Reef Heron and hybrid pairs have been detected e.g. in Spain. To me your heron shows features of both species, indicating it to be a hybrid. The all black bill and the colour of the legs are typical for Little Egret whereas the shape of the bill plus the shape of the head & forehead (angle between bill and forehead) fit much better to Western Reef Heron. As far as I know no solid proof of dark-form Little Egrets exist either. So, I would consider this as a hybrid - at least it is impossible from the pictures to identify it with full certainty to be either of these two species.

Best regards,
Jorma

 

[John Butler]

I forward you the reply I got from Jorma Tenovuo <jorma.tenovuoATutu.fi> who wrote a paper on WRH ID for the journal 'Alula'. The Italian ornithologist Andrea Corso also expressed doubts on the bird's legs... which'd get you slapped in most pubs in UK. 8-P

Hi Paul,

Sorry for my late reply but I've been out for a few days. Interesting bird in your photos. You know, there are a few reports of hybrids/intermediate forms of Little Egret / Western Reef Heron and hybrid pairs have been detected e.g. in Spain. To me your heron shows features of both species, indicating it to be a hybrid. The all black bill and the colour of the legs are typical for Little Egret whereas the shape of the bill plus the shape of the head & forehead (angle between bill and forehead) fit much better to Western Reef Heron. As far as I know no solid proof of dark-form Little Egrets exist either. So, I would consider this as a hybrid - at least it is impossible from the pictures to identify it with full certainty to be either of these two species.

Best regards,
Jorma

Hi Touty.

With regard to Jorma's reply to you. I agree that there are many hybrid WRH/LE's in Spain, but what he does not mention is the increased numbers of pure WRH's that are also present here.

The Spanish Rarities Committee have ratified the following over the last few years, as reported in the Spanish Bird Society's annual reports in it's magazine "Ardeola".

Vol 50 (1) 5 records from Tarragona, Huelva, Malaga, Valencia and Barcelona.

Vol 51 (2) 3 records from Tarragona, Malaga and Sevilla. The last of these involved 3 separate birds with photographic evidence.

Vol 52 (2) 4 records from Tarragona, Malaga, Huelva and Sevilla.

Vols 53 and 54, which will cover rare bird reports i the years 2004 and 2005 will also include numbers of WRHs.

Apart from these, there have been many reports that have not been ratified as they did not pass scrutiny as pure WRH and were classed as hybrids.


I see nothing with the legs/feet of this bird to discount WRH and it should be noted that several of the WRHs "accepted" here have had very dark brown, almost black beaks.

The Spanish Rarities Committee will have taken in all the written details and photographic evidence before making their decisions on the birds they have ratified. Don´t forget, they reject far more (hybrids) than they accept.

My personal view is to still go for WRH on this one.

Regards from Doñana.

John.

 

[John Butler]

Hi John
Do you think these off-spring are the birds we are getting along Spain's east coast all the way up to the Ebro?. If so it would certainly give credance to some of the other species found in this area such as Marabou, Yellow billed Stork, etc.

Hi Jules.

Seeing that you have had several ratified records of WRHs in Valencia and Tarragona regions in 2002 and 2003, I see no reason why they could not have interbred with Little Egrets and produced the hybrids you are now finding.

The hybrids I referred to in my earlier message are still in this region and we see them occasionally.

In October 2002 I discovered a Yellow-billed Stork in Doñana. In May 2003 I discovered a second Y-b Stork here. Two different birds that where both accepted and ratified by the Spanish Rarities Committee and published in "Ardeola" Vol 52 (1) as only the 2nd and 3rd for Spain.

On hearing of my finding a second bird, Ricard Gutierrez of the Rarities Committee came to Doñana and personally ratified it.

Both of these birds remained in the region for about a year before disappearing. One of these could be the bird/s you refer to as being present in the Ebro area.

We had a Marabou here for 3 weeks in June 2004, before it moved on. It portrayed the behaviour of a fully wild bird, but the jury is still out on that one.

Regards from Doñana.

John.

 

[steve west]

Wrh

Hi All,

Here are two photos I took yesterday morning at Punta Barene (Gorizia), just about the most northerly point of the Adriatic Sea (in Italy). The pictures show a bird that has been present in loco for more than 1 year. The beak is very long for a (melanistic) Little Egret but not very heavy (as it might be in Western Reef Heron) but it is quite decurved. The feet are ridiculously large and the tarsi very heavy (which suggests WRH). There have been suggestions of LE / WRH hybridisation in Italy in the last couple of years.

I'd be grateful for your comments.

Hi there

I wouldn't like to pronounce on your bird - photos are not my speciality, rather just to add that there's a WRH x Little Egret hybrid knocking around in the Ebro Delta (for the last couple of years) and I saw it again just two days ago. At first it was considerably whiter than it is now - at first glance the plumage is concordant with a WRH but on closer inspection there are still some remaining whitish feathers admixed. A couple of years ago the bird was much whiter. Personally I think these creatures are too much of a headache to judge on structure alone - probably because I've never seen them out of the Ebro Delta.

Regards
Steve West

 

[foxsparrow]

Hi all. A photo of the same egret taken while flying by Aldo Tonelli on December 8, 2005 can be found on my new blog on Surfbirds :t: :
http://www.surfbirds.com/blog/birdingitalynet
Merry Xmas