Interesting scaup like thing (1 Viewer)

[Gentoo]

I found this while browsing a pbase gallery. It looks like a hybrid but not the Ring-Necked Duck scaups I've seen. I was thinking perhaps Tufted Duck x scaup?

joern weigh in here as you're better than me at waterfowl hybrids. Look how dark it's back is and what about that white around the bill?

http://www.pbase.com/dang_57/image/74354747

 

[lostinjapan]

The bird just looks like a male Scaup to me..with traces of eclipse plumage/female plumage.

Sure someone will give you a more informed and different answers.

Cheers

Sean

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

I am not sure on this one... there is a lot of black on and around the nail but would still be OK on a female type scaup bill- it is quite dark on the back admittedly , but considering a bird in some kind of intermediate plumage, probably not too dark. i can not assess head shape correctly with this odd posture.
So I think this could be within the range of scaup.

 

[Steven Astley]

The bird in question is a male, not a pure Scaup IMO, black tip of bill to extensive and mantle too dark, I think it's a hybrid. Although its a funny posture reckon head shape suggests Scaup (lesser or greater) x Ring-necked hybrid or as you suggested gentoo a Scaup (lesser or greater) x Tufted duck hybrid.

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

If the bird is an ordinary male, whay then that much white around the Bill?

 

[Steven Astley]

If the bird is an ordinary male, whay then that much white around the Bill?

Good point Joern, is white around the bill exclusive to females. Maybe a result of hybridisation, eclipse plumage, age I don't know

Do you not think its the plumage is too clean looking and not brown enough for female aythya?

 

[Odonate]

That little sliver of black extending round the side of the bill does not convince me either. The mantle looks to be slightly vermiculated and what is going on on the throat?

O

 

[blokewivascope]

greater scaup x tuftie?

 

[chris butterworth]

If the bird is an ordinary male, whay then that much white around the Bill?

White around bill could be down to partial albinism ( I know they look very symmetrical but it does happen ), the patch on the throat looks like it's lost the feathers and we're seeing the bare skin. I'd go with male Gtr. Scaup.
Chris

 

[Steven Astley]

Still reckon the mantle looks dark for a Scaup. Looking at these Scaups, they show a lot of variability, there is a female Scaup that looks similar to gentoos a third the way down the page.
http://www.surfbirds.com/cgi-bin/ga...Scaup&photographer=&location=&county=&start=1

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

I agree the mantle looks dark for a male scaup- but what sex is this bird?

I have seen a very few similar looking birds over the years and have wondered: Considering this bird a scaup, what plumage exactly is this? It has some male characteristics, but also a few fitting better for a female scaup.

I am wondering , having seen a lot of intersex mallards over the years (which show some traits of males and some of females and some specific intersex traits), some intersex pintails and some probable intersexes in Eurasian Wigeon, Eurasian Teal, Redcrested Pochard and Common Pochard,
could this bird also be an intersex???

I think the head shape looks indeed oddly peaked but I am not sure if this isn´t just caused through the strange head position of the swallowing bird?

However, as I said i am not sure, -I can not exclude the hybrid possibility with this one photo ...

and to complicated matters: in some hybrid combinations I know also probable intersex birds (hybrid birds with traits of both sexes) occur-
for example in the combination Redcrested Pochard x Mallard.
see here: Redcrested Pochard x Mallard Male hybrids:
http://www.charliesbirdblog.com/~charlie/mankymallards/irbsi081.jpg
http://www.psiloswildlifephotography.co.uk/pages/birds/redcrestedpochardxmallard.htm
http://www.charliesbirdblog.com/~charlie/mankymallards/irbsi080.jpg

Redcrested Pochard x Mallard female hybrids:
http://www.ornitho.ch/index.php?m_id=54&mid=2742
http://www.ornithomedia.com/pratique/identif/ident_art44_1.htm

Redcrested Pochard x Mallard intersex? hybrids:
http://www.ornitho.ch/index.php?m_id=54&mid=5023
http://www.ornitho.ch/index.php?m_id=54&mid=6838
http://www.ornitho.ch/index.php?m_id=54&mid=37532


It´s a pity there is only one photo...

 

[Th_SQ]

Nice picture !

Is there a chance that it is an 1st winter male Greater Scaup (which are highly variable) ?

 

[blokewivascope]

would scaup and golden eye cross breed ?

 

[CAU]

Like Th_SQ suggests, first winter male Scaups may still have a large white patch at the base of the bill while having moulted otherwise mostly to breeding plumage. Here's an example of one (from the link in post #10):
http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20081119100625.jpg

This bird, which has been labeled as an adult female, might actually also be a first winter male:
http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20061113120757.jpg
However, some senescent females might develop male-like characters, and thus be difficult to sex (especially if you can't age the bird).

Regarding the subject bird, the back looks strangely dark for a pure Scaup. The North American subspecies has on average a darker back than the European one, but the ground colour still looks very darkly grey to me. However, I don't know whether it might partly be due to a photographic effect.

 

[colonelboris]

I've seen quite a few intersex Mallards round these parts recently. I reckon it's Roche pouring unused packets of the pill into the rivers...

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

Hi CAU, as you are seeing probably many more scaups than I, can you estimate how common it is for first winter scaup to have a large bright white patch at the base of the bill while having moulted otherwise mostly to breeding plumage?
I always remembered such a patch as much more dirty and irregular looking but maybe i am wrong?

Concerning the photo you linked, Gentoo;
I am still not sure what this bird is?

I have been checking on the coloration in hybrids and pure Scaup and did not find many supposedly pure scaup looking that darkbacked as the bird in question here, but a few were close. It has a lot to do with the light situation at the actual photo how contrasty and how darkbacked the bird appears , it seemed to me.

What I did do then is look at some photos of adult males Greater Scaup x Tufted Duck and Scaup sp. (not clear if lesser or greater) x Ringnecked Duck in full breeding plumage, find the result attached.

So colourwise the probable first generation hybrids Greater Scaup x Tufted Duck in full breeding plumage were whiteflanked,
whereas Scaup sp. xRingnecked duck has a greyish caste to the flanks (and pattern seems to be at least sometimes slightly vermiculated).

This seems to be closer to adult hybrids ringnecked x scaup sp. then-- but a few bad photos of moulting greater scaup x tuftie did also show some greyish on flanks or some vermiculations.

Also i checked on appearance of a tuft in hybrids- most f1 hybrids Tufted x greater scaup in full breeding plumage have a clearly visible tuft (though it can be small-but still clearly visible), but in some cases it can be flattened.

So absence of tuft in head shape on one photo does not nessecarily mean it can´t have a tufted duck parent.

The head shape of Ringnecked duck x Scaup sp shows the ringnecked influence- being much more peaked than in the scaups -- however , the bird in the photo is in an odd position as it swallows a clam, therefore i am not 100% confident if head shape isn´t influenced somehow.

Amount of black on bill tip is in general closer to greater scaup in f1 hybrids Tufted x greater scaup where i have seen this feature. I can not give information on the variation in Ringnecked x Scaup sp.- but there are at least some with more black on bill tip.

However, with Aythya, there is always also the possibility it is not an F1 hybrid as the Aythya hybrids seem generally fertile...

So I still am not sure what this bird exactly is...
I think we would be at a better situation if more photos emerge

 

[Th_SQ]

how common it is for first winter scaup to have a large bright white patch at the base of the bill while having moulted otherwise mostly to breeding plumage?
I always remembered such a patch as much more dirty and irregular looking but maybe i am wrong?

It may be unusual but why would it be more unusual for a G.S. ?

Btw, I find it hard to believe it may be a female.

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

It may be unusual but why would it be more unusual for a G.S. ?

I did not want to imply more unusual than in a hybrid, if thats what you mean?

I just wanted to know how commonly CAU sees this feature strongly expressed, as he is in the position that he probably sees the species regularly in greater numbers (which i did last about twenty years ago, living in northern Germany then and often visiting the Baltic sea coast).

 

[CAU]

I just wanted to know how commonly CAU sees this feature strongly expressed, as he is in the position that he probably sees the species regularly in greater numbers (which i did last about twenty years ago, living in northern Germany then and often visiting the Baltic sea coast).

Well, actually I don't see that many winter Greater Scaups as they don't usually winter this far north (the shores freeze here in winter). I'd estimate that I have seen totally only a few tens of first winter males in mid winter. Usually the head is completely moulted, but sometimes the white patch at the base of the bill is still quite prominent, although mottled to a varying degree (or perhaps somewhat dirty and irregular looking, as you put it). I've seen several such birds with a mostly moulted body plumage, so I'd estimate that it isn't too uncommon, but having such a patch with a completely moulted body plumage might be uncommon.

On the subject bird the edge of the patch looks mottled (the center is probably somewhat overexposed) and I'd say that some of the birds that I have seen have had a pretty similar looking patch. But as the back looks dark and as the tip of the bill is rather broadly black, I would not identify it as a Greater Scaup.

I had a look again at my links, and this bird is actually probably just a pale female (perhaps first winter due to the rather dark iris):
http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20081119100625.jpg

P. Pyle's "Identification Guide to North American Birds" warns that old females might develop male-like characters, but I don't know what such birds might exactly look like. Perhaps this is one, I don't know:
http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20061113120757.jpg

 

[Th_SQ]

My point was that the plumage is unusual (with some marked male and female/young characters) for any Aythya.