iberian magpie ? andalucia (1 Viewer)

[marnixR]

from the location where i saw this bird (Acebuche, Andalucia in southern Spain) i assumed this to be an iberian magpie, but from time to time i have my doubts whether it could be an azure-winged magpie instead, which doesn't look too dissimilar from this bird

the Wikipedia entry for iberian magpie doesn't help since it gives azure-winged magpie as an alternative name, even though their specific names are different (C.cooki vs. C.cyanus)

pictures taken mid-june last year

 

[Sangahyando]

Definitely Iberian, unless it's escaped from a zoo. "Proper" Azure-winged Magpie only occurs in East Asia. They've been split from one another only recently, and I don't know if all authorities already accept the split.

 

[Nutcracker]

Yep, Iberian Magpie Cyanopica cooki, formerly part of Azure-winged Magpie but recently split.

The Asian Azure-winged Magpie has a white tip to the tail which Iberian doesn't have :t:

 

[janvanderbrugge]

Hello Marnix,
The bird of your picture is definitely the Azure-winged Magpie, but at the same time you could call it Iberian Blue Magpie. The name of this species is Cyanopica cyanus; it was first described by P.S.Pallas in 1776, from East Asia, and later populations of other Asian regions (China, Japan, Korea) were described, as belonging to the same species, but as subspecies, in the trinomial system. In this system the first-described type receives a doubling of its scientific name and is thus called Cyanopica cyanus cyanus (in ornithology this is called: the nominate subspecies), while other subspecies (or regional races, as they are sometimes termed) are called C.cyanus japonica, C.cyanus koreensis etc.
When in southern Iberia a resembling bird was discovered, it received the same name, but it differs in minor aspects from the other forms; so the French ornithologist C.L.Bonaparte chose the name Cyanopica cyanus cooki for that bird, in 1850. Of course it was rather difficult to understand how a species with a pure Asian distribution would occur on only one place elsewhere, in the SW of Europe, unless it would have been brought there by ship. The Iberian subspecies is named after Captain S.E.Cook, an English naturalist (1785-1856), who had called it Pica cyanea (blue magpie), but that name had already been given to the Asian bird by Pallas.

Anyway, the Iberian bird was always considered as the only non-Asian representative of the Azure-winged Magpie. In Handbook of the World vol.14, p.598, the speculation about Portuguese sea transport is thrown aside, because fossilized remains in Gibraltar caves indicate that the Asian and Iberian forms were separated during last glaciation and DNA studies indicate that they diverged one million years ago. This seems enough reason to treat them as two different bird species. Thus: end of the subspecies cooki, it should be: species Cyanopica cooki, with het English name Iberian Azure-winged Magpie, as different from the Asian Azure-winged Magpie. I think the name "Iberian Magpie" can better be avoided, for of course every common Magpie (Pica pica) in Spain and Portugal is an Iberian magpie. The Handbook mentions the possibility of a geographical race in northern interior Spain, "for which the name gili is available" (so there would then be two Iberian races of cooki). When checking these things in HBW I looked at both illustrations, of course, to check the differences. The Asian Azure-winged does not have any brownish in its plumage, is has a grey back and the underparts are greyish white. The Spanish name for this bird has always been Rabilargo = longtail, Portuguese Rabudo, but in comparison they have to add "Ibérico" now, against the "Asiático".
I don't know about the Chinese and Mongolian names, but by chance I know the Japanese one, which is Onaga and means, yes: longtail.
Well, so far, thank you, this topic had made my existing knowledge more up to date and complete!
Regards,
Jan van der Brugge, Netherlands

 

[Jack Dawe]

Interesting post, Jan. Thank you.

 

[Sangahyando]

I think the name "Iberian Magpie" can better be avoided, for of course every common Magpie (Pica pica) in Spain and Portugal is an Iberian magpie.

"Iberian Magpie" is quite appropriate since it's endemic to the Iberian Peninsula, unlike the Common Magpie. There are lots of similar cases already - for instance, the Emei Leaf Warbler isn't the only leaf warbler occurring in Emei Shan, but it's endemic to the place.
"Iberian Azure-winged Magpie" is just unneccessary long-winded and redundant since the split. When naming things, you have to consider that people want to be able to communicate efficiently, thus names not only should be exact, they also shouldn't be longer or more convoluted than necessary.

 

[Simon Wates]

Portuguese Rabudo, but in comparison they have to add "Ibérico" now, against the "Asiático"

Nice post Jan

One correction; Portuguese name is Pega-azul. Pega-rabudo is Common Magpie (Pega being a Magpie and also a whore :eek!: ) An alternative name is; Charneco (pronounced Sharneco), which I rather like and use.

 

[fdokykcu]

Just as a curiosity, "pega"is also a widely used in Spain local name for Common Magpie (vernacular official name "Urraca"), in particular in northern Castile. In Spanish doesn't have the second meaning as is Portuguese. As far as I know, "pega" is not used at all in Spain for Iberian (Azure-winged) Magpie

Nice post Jan
One correction; Portuguese name is Pega-azul. Pega-rabudo is Common Magpie (Pega being a Magpie and also a whore :eek!: ) An alternative name is; Charneco (pronounced Sharneco), which I rather like and use.

 

[John Cantelo]

The species is sometimes called 'Iberian Magpie' and more rarely 'Cook's Magpie' (after its discoverer see below) but my personal view is that Iberian Azure-winged Magpie is the best of the suggested names. Iberian Magpie invites confusion with local races of (Black-billed) Magpie and 'Cook's Magpie' tells us nothing of where the is found or what it looks like. Iberian Azure-winged Magpie reminds us what it looks like & where's found. It's a bit long-winded admittedly but so are many bird names! Oddly enough by the time it was named in honour of its finder, Cpt Cook, the man himself had adopted an entirely different name! I quote below from a blog I did on the topic a few years ago ...

"Most references relate that was first found in Spain in 1831 (or 1830) by Capt S E Cook and indeed he is honoured by having the Spanish birds named after him - Cyanopica (cyana) cooki. Ironically, by the time this singular honour was made, Captain Cook had been Captain Widdrington for a decade having taken his mother's maiden name on inheriting her estates in 1840. He mentions the species in his book "Sketches in Spain During the Years 1829, 30, 31 & 32” (Pub. 1834) and, although he doesn't give details of precisely where he found it he writes that it was “common in new Castile, in the wooded parts, and is in vast numbers in the Sierra Morena ...” His short description of foraging flocks couldn't be bettered today - "They live in small flocks, generally into a line, are extremely watchful, and are constantly moving, in short flights, commonly in cover, feeding on roads, or as food may offer”. Some later visitors found them elusive, but it was soon discovered that one prime location were the Royal Gardens in Madrid. I suspect this was a convenient source for many collectors who quickly amassed collection of skins and dozens of eggs - no wonder it was often described as 'shy' during the Victorian period. Yet tucked away in Cook's book is an intriguing reference that shows that someone else must have recorded it earlier. Cook wrote that he had “only seen it described in Wagler, besides Pallas, who, I believe discovered it in Siberia...” The Wagler referred to Dr Joannes Wagler (Director of the Zoological Museum in Munich) whose 'Systema Avium', published in 1827, contains a very brief comment that 'Corvus cyanus Pall' was found in Spain and nested in trees (although it's possible that this may be an addition to a later edition unacknowledged in the copy I looked at online). Where Wagler got his information from is unclear although there seems to be a French connection as his first paragraph concluded with (Mus. Paris)" see http://birdingcadizprovince.weebly.com/cadiz-birding-blog-page/almost-widdringtons-magpie.

So perhaps we ought to be calling it Widdrington's Magpie although I've always rather fancied "Cyan-winged Magpie"!

 

[marnixR]

thanks for the helpful comments, which have left me both enlightened and slightly confused at the same time |^|