hybrid duck (1 Viewer)

[lou salomon]

hello all

i think this is sort of a hybrid, seen a week ago near stuttgart, germany.
i havn't searched much, maybe somebody knows it right away. jörn, are you around?
'mobile-binned', so the pic is not ideal. it had a greenish sheen on the dark cap and in the wings, and as you can see, a dark pink wash at the base of bill. tail pretty long. squarish head.

:smoke:

 

[John Oates]

Hi Lou,

I think you have seen a young Red-billed Teal. They are from the southern half of Africa. You can find some information here:

http://www.oiseaux.net/oiseaux/anseriformes/red-billed.teal.html

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

Hi Lou,

yep, I am around ... seems you managed to find something really odd!... I think, on a first glance, that this is Redbilled Teal x Wood duck... Not a pure redbilled teal in any case.

Greenish sheen on cap, reddish only at base of bill, bigeyed and longtailed appearance indicate the wood duck parentage...

Where near Stuttgart? is it still there? and is there a chance to get more pictures?

I am inclined to go there next weekend...

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

I ´d even go further and say it is probably an eclipse male of this hybrid combination.

To approach this from the other side:Why a hybrid and not a pure Redbilled teal?

all mantle feathers and tail feathers in Redbilled teal show a thin whitish borderline- the bird in question misses this.

Redbilled teal has a rather round head shape- the bird in question has an oddly square head shape (compare also with the eclipse male wood duck head in the collage).

Also the bird looks shortbilled for a redbilled teal and the red isn´t that pronounced on the bill

The cheeks of our bird are not pale enough for an adult redbilled teal (not sure about a juvenile however, in this point)

A look on the speculum might confirm my thoughts...



Another , more remote chance might be a hybrid Bahama Pintail x Wood duck... but those seem to be slightly more longtailed and with red on bill even more restricted to the base, if it is there at all..and also with less clearly demarcated cap, and generally with a browner colour tinge...

Female:
http://www.chclub300.ch/gallery/Suchen/index.php?show_img=1306&current_page=1

Male: (the 3rd pic from above)
http://www.exoticwaterfowl.com/

 

[lou salomon]

hi jörn!

it was near esslingen-zell at the entrance of the "altneckar" into the main river. the bird first hung around in the "altneckar" near the bridge, then came to feeding down in the main channel. give me a call when you like to see the bird, maybe we find it together. red-billed teal and wood duck seems the most reasonable combination. thanks for your input so far!

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

Hi Lou, I hope I´ll manage at the weekend, but I ´ll still have to see...
I am weather dependent at work at the moment- and if there isn´t a longer period without rain the next days, I´ll have to work at the weekend also....

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

Managed to see it Friday evening.... still not 100% sure... it didn´t show the speculum ...was quite tame towards people but less tame than some of the mallards and still very wary...

 

[lostinjapan]

Managed to see it Friday evening.... still not 100% sure... it didn´t show the speculum ...was quite tame towards people but less tame than some of the mallards and still very wary...

Why Wood Duck and not Mandarin? Isn't Mandarin as likely as Wood Duck as one of the partners?:-O

Sean

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

Why Wood Duck and not Mandarin? Isn't Mandarin as likely as Wood Duck as one of the partners?:-O

Sean

Hi Sean, this is an intriguing question.

As far as I know there isn´t any proven hybrid of mandarin with any other species of duck
... there are even no proven hybrids of mandarin x Wood duck(its closest relative), allthough it has been even tried by people to bvreed them, because they where curious what the male would like... not a good IDEa , I think...

But fortunately it seems to be impossible to produce a mandarin hybrid ...

I have seen the following hybrids of Wood duck: x Northern Pintail; x BahamaPintail; x Marbled Teal; x Shellduck; x Ferrugineous Duck; x Mallard ; X Wigeon; x American Wigeon; x Falcated Teal, x Ringed Teal; x North American Black duck...and so on, more in the Guillham books on hybrid ducks

But none with Mandarin (some mentioned in Guilham books on hybrid ducks, but a bit doubtfull and chicks were deformed) and what I have seen on the web or have been sent turned out to be intersex Mandarin, Intersex wood duck; or call ducks


I have once read that this would be due to chromosomal incompatibilities of Mandarin with other ducks... in that case the meaning seeemed to be the chromosome number is different?
I can see how this could lead to lethal problems in meiosis... but does that mean all ducks that interbreed, have the same or very close chromosome numbers ?

As an aside: I have read that wild boar can have chromosome numbers of 2N = 66 ; or = 68 and still can interbreed successfully and are considered the same species... there are a few other examples of such things.

But I´d need a lot more time to find the literature explaining these cases..

However, back to the duck:

all bahama pintail x wood duck Photos show ducks with rather uniform cinnamon undrtail coverts... The hybrid Lou found is much closer in this aspect to Redbilled teal: pale whitish undertail coverts with brown pattern.

Alsio amount and distribution of red on bill better fits to Redbilled teal...

 

[lostinjapan]

Hi Sean, this is an intriguing question.

As far as I know there isn´t any proven hybrid of mandarin with any other species of duck
... there are even no proven hybrids of mandarin x Wood duck(its closest relative), allthough it has been even tried by people to bvreed them, because they where curious what the male would like... not a good IDEa , I think...

But fortunately it seems to be impossible to produce a mandarin hybrid ...

I have seen the following hybrids of Wood duck: x Northern Pintail; x BahamaPintail; x Marbled Teal; x Shellduck; x Ferrugineous Duck; x Mallard ; X Wigeon; x American Wigeon; x Falcated Teal, x Ringed Teal; x North American Black duck...and so on, more in the Guillham books on hybrid ducks

But none with Mandarin (some mentioned in Guilham books on hybrid ducks, but a bit doubtfull and chicks were deformed) and what I have seen on the web or have been sent turned out to be intersex Mandarin, Intersex wood duck; or call ducks


I have once read that this would be due to chromosomal incompatibilities of Mandarin with other ducks... in that case the meaning seeemed to be the chromosome number is different?
I can see how this could lead to lethal problems in meiosis... but does that mean all ducks that interbreed, have the same or very close chromosome numbers ?

As an aside: I have read that wild boar can have chromosome numbers of 2N = 66 ; or = 68 and still can interbreed successfully and are considered the same species... there are a few other examples of such things.

But I´d need a lot more time to find the literature explaining these cases..

However, back to the duck:

all bahama pintail x wood duck Photos show ducks with rather uniform cinnamon undrtail coverts... The hybrid Lou found is much closer in this aspect to Redbilled teal: pale whitish undertail coverts with brown pattern.

Alsio amount and distribution of red on bill better fits to Redbilled teal...

Hey Joern

Thanks for that. That is some very interesting information. I am gonna keep an eye for Mandarin hybrids here to see if that theory can be disproved!

Cheers

SeanB

 

[Dimitris]

Hi Sean, this is an intriguing question.

As far as I know there isn´t any proven hybrid of mandarin with any other species of duck
... there are even no proven hybrids of mandarin x Wood duck(its closest relative), allthough it has been even tried by people to bvreed them, because they where curious what the male would like... not a good IDEa , I think...

But fortunately it seems to be impossible to produce a mandarin hybrid ...

I have seen the following hybrids of Wood duck: x Northern Pintail; x BahamaPintail; x Marbled Teal; x Shellduck; x Ferrugineous Duck; x Mallard ; X Wigeon; x American Wigeon; x Falcated Teal, x Ringed Teal; x North American Black duck...and so on, more in the Guillham books on hybrid ducks

But none with Mandarin (some mentioned in Guilham books on hybrid ducks, but a bit doubtfull and chicks were deformed) and what I have seen on the web or have been sent turned out to be intersex Mandarin, Intersex wood duck; or call ducks


I have once read that this would be due to chromosomal incompatibilities of Mandarin with other ducks... in that case the meaning seeemed to be the chromosome number is different?
I can see how this could lead to lethal problems in meiosis... but does that mean all ducks that interbreed, have the same or very close chromosome numbers ?

As an aside: I have read that wild boar can have chromosome numbers of 2N = 66 ; or = 68 and still can interbreed successfully and are considered the same species... there are a few other examples of such things.

But I´d need a lot more time to find the literature explaining these cases..

However, back to the duck:

all bahama pintail x wood duck Photos show ducks with rather uniform cinnamon undrtail coverts... The hybrid Lou found is much closer in this aspect to Redbilled teal: pale whitish undertail coverts with brown pattern.

Alsio amount and distribution of red on bill better fits to Redbilled teal...

Hello Joern,

In general what you are saying about chromosomes is correct. And is the hybrids are fertile it in genral means that the parent species have the same number of chromosomes (as is the case with most Dabling Ducks). If there's a huge difference in the number of chromosomes than in general any matings don't produce any viable ofspring...However, I don't expect Mandarin to have such a large difference unless Mandarin is very unique.

On another note Joern. Have you heard of any Hybrids involving Australian Wooduck??

Cheers!

Dimitris

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

Hi Dimitris,

No; I havent heard of any hybrids involving Chenonetta jubata.

Concerning number of chromosomes: even the closely realated mandarin and Wood duck don´t seem to produce offspring- so something odd is going on here .
I seem to remember there can be extreme differences in chromosome numbers of some very closely related Flies of the genus Drosophila due to some chromosomes having fusioned in some species???

If I remember correctly about that; maybe that could that also happen in birds or other organisms?

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

Hi Sean,
that would indeed be a real surprise for me if you find a hybrid mandarin.

Good luck!

 

[John Oates]

This is proving to be an interesting duck. I thought I would say a few things about young Red-billed Teals. Apparently, juveniles have tend to have buffy feather fringes (rather than white or whitish) and duller plumage, making them less contrasting and less obvious. The tail of the mystery duck does seem to have pale fringes on at least the outer feathers. Also juv Red-billed Teals don't have the sharply pointed scapulars of adults. They seem to be more rounded. Another feature attributed to juveniles is a duller bill.

The mystery duck does seem to have quite a few good Red-billed Teal features, but having looked again I do agree it looks very odd - especially the head. In my opinion the only way a pure Red-billed Teal could have such a short bill and square head would be if it was not fully grown.

There are no particularly close matches in the Gilham books. The Cape Teal x Bahama Pintail bears a superficial resemblance I suppose. It is a pity they don't have a Wood Duck x Red-billed Teal. Maybe the next edition will…

It seems that more often than not Wood Duck hybrids have very dark, usually uniform upperparts. Even the female offspring of crosses with Mallard have dark upperparts. I know this isn’t terribly useful when discussing the mystery duck, because just about any plumage variation is possible with hybrids. I just find it interesting.

Will you be going to have another look Joern?

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

This is proving to be an interesting duck. I thought I would say a few things about young Red-billed Teals. Apparently, juveniles have tend to have buffy feather fringes (rather than white or whitish) and duller plumage, making them less contrasting and less obvious. The tail of the mystery duck does seem to have pale fringes on at least the outer feathers. Also juv Red-billed Teals don't have the sharply pointed scapulars of adults. They seem to be more rounded. Another feature attributed to juveniles is a duller bill.

The mystery duck does seem to have quite a few good Red-billed Teal features, but having looked again I do agree it looks very odd - especially the head. In my opinion the only way a pure Red-billed Teal could have such a short bill and square head would be if it was not fully grown.

There are no particularly close matches in the Gilham books. The Cape Teal x Bahama Pintail bears a superficial resemblance I suppose. It is a pity they don't have a Wood Duck x Red-billed Teal. Maybe the next edition will…

It seems that more often than not Wood Duck hybrids have very dark, usually uniform upperparts. Even the female offspring of crosses with Mallard have dark upperparts. I know this isn’t terribly useful when discussing the mystery duck, because just about any plumage variation is possible with hybrids. I just find it interesting.

Will you be going to have another look Joern?

Hi John, if I find the time, I will try...(was in northern Germany for 10 days... and just missed Broadbilled sandpiper, marsh sandpiper and rednecked phalarope sitting together at the same spot...:-C )

Hi Lou, have you seen the duck recently?

 

[lou salomon]

hi jörn,

no, it seems to be quite elusive. i was at the place at friday and it didn't show up. it's the third time after i discovered it, that i missed it, well, staying there about 1-2 hours each time. wanted to make better photos of it since this hybrid combinations seems to be rare. but from now on i'll be busy with work, still, if you come to stuttgart again, give me a call.

seems you've had a great time on fehmarn?

cheers,

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

Hi Lou,

well ...I missed the Broad billed Sandpiper...again ( last time i saw one is about 20 years in the past now....)... but got nice closeup views of Whitetailed eagle, Caspian tern, a lot of nice waders (eg 6 rednecked phalaropes, curlew sand, temminks, little and so on and so on)...

If I find time i´ll make a short trip report for this trip and the one I did 2 years before...