House x Tree Sparrow? (or italiae?!) Norfolk UK (1 Viewer)

[Andy Benson]

Has anyone any thoughts on this bird? I done some limited (ie Google search!) on hybrid House x tree but couldn't see anything close to this bird, italiae however keeps cropping up (with some showing chestnut bleeding into the black upper breast like this bird). Failing that, has any one else seen a House Sparrow with a combination of complete rufous crown, white cheeks and the rufous in the upper breast like this one? There's a whole range of pictures been taken but I think these two will do initially
Cheers
Andy

 

[harr1y]

Looks more like a house x Spanish or Italian sparrow...but im no sparrow guru

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/14947902

More so with that stonking white wing patch

 

[Andy Benson]

Cheers
Had considered 'Spanish x House' especially as the bill appears chunky but apparently these should show some hint of streaking in the flanks or upperbreast, which this one does not. It seems an italiae ringer to me, though I have never seen one.

 

[Dimitris]

Looks pretty good for a House x Spanish Sparrow to me.

Edit: Note that many consider Italian Sparrows to be a 'stable' hybrid population between House and Spanish and the relationships are still being investigated.

 

[Andy Benson]

Thanks, I read that too http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/14947902

 

[Andy Benson]

Another view

 

[AlfArbuthnot]

I don't see House x Spanish. For one thing, there's no hint of any streaking on the flanks.

The only out-of-the-ordinary thing about this bird is the chestnut crown (white cheeks are fine for House Sparrow, they're quite variable from grey to white). So it could just be an aberrant House Sparrow.

That is arguably more likely than the alternative, which is a hybrid. House x Tree is much more likely than Spanish, as that would need another unlikely event to happen - a vagrant.

It's worth noting that there are very few if any proven hybrids of House x Tree Sparrows. They are all presumed, based on the appearance of a bird. Many of them probably involve birds like yours, and someone somewhere has decided it's a hybrid and so records it as such, and then it's set in stone. Despite all of the Tree Sparrow nestboxes ringed every year, I can't remember seeing a single record of a hybrid brood.

But your bird, and many others, could just be aberrant House Sparrows. After all, how many hybrid passerines do you see flying around Britain? Pretty much none. And how many birds with aberrant colouring (bits of white, bits of black, dark, light etc)? It's not that uncommon.

So I would not put your bird down as a hybrid, as there's basically no proof. What you have is "a House Sparrow with a chestnut crown, showing features resembling...[insert hybrid/scenario of choice]"

 

[Larry Sweetland]

Can Italian Sparrow be excluded though from these pics? A bit of trawling shows they can lack any flank streaking, and some look to me to be a pretty close match to the OP's bird.

 

[Hotspur]

Can Italian Sparrow be excluded though from these pics? A bit of trawling shows they can lack any flank streaking, and some look to me to be a pretty close match to the OP's bird.

And could surely be a vagrant?

 

[Jos Stratford]

It's worth noting that there are very few if any proven hybrids of House x Tree Sparrows. They are all presumed, based on the appearance of a bird.

Few perhaps, but there are certainly some proven examples. There are nest studies for example where hybridisation has occurred, with the young monitored, ie known individuals, not presumed.

 

[Larry Sweetland]

And could surely be a vagrant?

Well at least an easily ship assisted one, eg if Iago Sparrows can get to Holland, and Spanish Sparrow to near docks in hants and Suffolk -O).

Is it me though, or is there a slight greyish cast to the forecrown in one of those pics, that woudn't be good news for Italian??

 

[Andy Benson]

I don't see House x Spanish. For one thing, there's no hint of any streaking on the flanks.

The only out-of-the-ordinary thing about this bird is the chestnut crown (white cheeks are fine for House Sparrow, they're quite variable from grey to white). So it could just be an aberrant House Sparrow.

That is arguably more likely than the alternative, which is a hybrid. House x Tree is much more likely than Spanish, as that would need another unlikely event to happen - a vagrant.

It's worth noting that there are very few if any proven hybrids of House x Tree Sparrows. They are all presumed, based on the appearance of a bird. Many of them probably involve birds like yours, and someone somewhere has decided it's a hybrid and so records it as such, and then it's set in stone. Despite all of the Tree Sparrow nestboxes ringed every year, I can't remember seeing a single record of a hybrid brood.

But your bird, and many others, could just be aberrant House Sparrows. After all, how many hybrid passerines do you see flying around Britain? Pretty much none. And how many birds with aberrant colouring (bits of white, bits of black, dark, light etc)? It's not that uncommon.

So I would not put your bird down as a hybrid, as there's basically no proof. What you have is "a House Sparrow with a chestnut crown, showing features resembling...[insert hybrid/scenario of choice]"

Ok, so using the same argument, is there proof that House Sparrows occur showing the characters shown by this bird, that are not hybrids (as was asked in the original posting)

 

[AlfArbuthnot]

Few perhaps, but there are certainly some proven examples. There are nest studies for example where hybridisation has occurred, with the young monitored, ie known individuals, not presumed.

Any references?

 

[AlfArbuthnot]

Ok, so using the same argument, is there proof that House Sparrows occur showing the characters shown by this bird, that are not hybrids (as was asked in the original posting)

Occam's Razor.

There are plenty of examples of aberrant House Sparrows. But if the aberration happens to look like something else (hybrid) then it would be wrongly recorded as such. So I'd dare say there are no proven examples.

But we can prove that aberration is relatively common, while hybridisation is relatively rare. And vargancy is also very rare, which makes hybridisation with a vagrant or vagrancy of a hybrid even more remote. So on the balance of probability...

 

[jalid]

It's worth noting that there are very few if any proven hybrids of House x Tree Sparrows. They are all presumed, based on the appearance of a bird. Many of them probably involve birds like yours, and someone somewhere has decided it's a hybrid and so records it as such, and then it's set in stone. Despite all of the Tree Sparrow nestboxes ringed every year, I can't remember seeing a single record of a hybrid brood.

Tree Sparrow X House Sparrow was a quite regular hybrid combination in 1990's in Southern Finland, when Tree Sparrow expanded to new areas. I saw personally perhaps ten, without much trying. Now when the both species are common, this hybrid do not seem to occur any more.

Possibly none of those were really "proven" with gene tests, but they showed intermediate characters between the species, unlike this bird.

The similar case seems to be Blyth's Reed and Marsh Warblers. They were reported to hybridise regularly, but this seem not occur any more, when both are reasonably common.

 

[Larry Sweetland]

Occam's Razor.

There are plenty of examples of aberrant House Sparrows. But if the aberration happens to look like something else (hybrid) then it would be wrongly recorded as such. So I'd dare say there are no proven examples.

But we can prove that aberration is relatively common, while hybridisation is relatively rare. And vargancy is also very rare, which makes hybridisation with a vagrant or vagrancy of a hybrid even more remote. So on the balance of probability...

You're still overlooking Italian Sparrow, of which there are lots (and it's considered a species, at least by IOC), and they look quite like this as I recall (or don't they?).

 

[Jan-Paul Charteris]

Not seen Italian Sparrow myself, but maybe against it are lack of any white super (also wrong for House but fine for hybrid House x Tree), and the apparent grey mixed in the centre of the crown (again wrong for House or Italian but fine for House x Tree). House x tree Sparrow have more documented examples than quite a few hybrid types. Most long-term birders will have seen quite a few photos of such over the years with obvious mixed characters. So why not House x Tree lacking the usual hint of cheek patch of such a cross, or indeed a backcross with House which may explain the lack of cheek patch and more extensive bib than most photographed House x Tree?

 

[Larry Sweetland]

good anti-Italian points Jan-Paul, cheers :t:

 

[AlfArbuthnot]

Not seen Italian Sparrow myself, but maybe against it are lack of any white super (also wrong for House but fine for hybrid House x Tree), and the apparent grey mixed in the centre of the crown (again wrong for House or Italian but fine for House x Tree). House x tree Sparrow have more documented examples than quite a few hybrid types. Most long-term birders will have seen quite a few photos of such over the years with obvious mixed characters. So why not House x Tree lacking the usual hint of cheek patch of such a cross, or indeed a backcross with House which may explain the lack of cheek patch and more extensive bib than most photographed House x Tree?

Broadly agree, but it still requires the more complicated explanation of a hybrid or back-cross (are they even fertile?) just to explain a lack of total grey crown (I thought I could also see some hints of grey in one pic). There's nothing else to suggest a Tree hybrid - plenty of pics on Google of male House showing very little or no white supercilium, and no cheek smudge. The cheeks also look to be less than totally white to me, I can't see a brilliant contrast with the grey belly.

It might be a hybrid House x Tree but it's not an obvious self-explanatory one showing several mixed features. It just looks like a House Sparrow with a brown crown (mostly brown? totally brown?), so maybe that's all it is. I don't think it's possible to rule out that explanation.

There's even less features shared with Spanish, and a hybrid or vagrant Italian stikes me as very far down the list of probabilities.

 

[Andy Benson]

Thanks Jan-Paul, had considered the lack of white over the eye a problem but found these birds with much reduced white or lacking
http://ibc.lynxeds.com/files/imagecache/photo_940/pictures/Passer-italiae-487.jpg
http://www.oiseaux.net/photos/regine.le.courtois.nivart/images/moineau.cisalpin.rlcn.1g.jpg

The grey in the crown is a worry if it is there, my initial photo showing the crown is not the best technically so I will see if others got a clearer shot to confirm or otherwise the presence of this.
ATB