Herring Gull? - ID Help (1 Viewer)

[kuzeycem]

Hi, today I came across a series of photographs from various birdwatchers that were labeled as "European Herring Gulls". Although most people agreed with the ID, I don't. I think this is a slightly odd Yellow-legged Gull. And here are my reasons:

1) Mantle colour is too dark, even for argentatus
2) Legs are yellow (I know omissus types can have yellow legs, but they are pretty rare aren't they?
3) The wingtip has too much black, I can clearly see black on P5.
4) P9 has a smaller mirror than typical argentatus, looks more like Herring Gull.

The only weird thing ıs the amount of head streaking, but I guess some Yellow-legged Gulls can have that much streaking.

I DO NOT OWN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Nutcracker]

I'd agree with you :t:

 

[kuzeycem]

Thanks - now the problem is to break the news to 20 people who think they just recorded the 4th Herring Gull for Turkey.

 

[HH75]

Hi, today I came across a series of photographs from various birdwatchers that were labeled as "European Herring Gulls". Although most people agreed with the ID, I don't. I think this is a slightly odd Yellow-legged Gull. And here are my reasons:

1) Mantle colour is too dark, even for argentatus

Some northern argentatus are as dark as this, perhaps even darker, and I know I've often picked out presumed 'northern argentatus' from local argenteus on this basis initially and then confirmed that by looking at the primary pattern etc. Besides, this bird seems a tone paler than the nearby YLGU in the second image.

2) Legs are yellow (I know omissus types can have yellow legs, but they are pretty rare aren't they?

'Omissus' has long been associated, erroneously, with 'Herring Gulls with yellow legs', when it actually refers to Herring Gulls breeding in the Baltic region, some of which have yellow legs, some of which don't, and which resemble Caspian Gull in some respects. It has also been queried as to whether this form, if it ever was a valid taxon, has now been bred out following input of (more typical) argentatus genes.
That said, Herring Gulls in the Baltic region and also in Scandinavia (less commonly) can and do show yellow legs.

3) The wingtip has too much black, I can clearly see black on P5.

There's only a small black mark on P5, certainly not the complete thick black band that I'd expect on an adult or near adult Yellow-legged Gull. There also is more or less a full white tip to P10 (though this can be shown more commonly by Yellow-legged Gulls in the eastern Med than western Europe), and relatively limited black on the wingtip on the underwing.

4) P9 has a smaller mirror than typical argentatus, looks more like Herring Gull.

Argentatus are Herring Gulls, so I don't know what you are referring to here? Besides, there's clinal variation and individual variation within Herring Gull.

The only weird thing ıs the amount of head streaking, but I guess some Yellow-legged Gulls can have that much streaking.

I would argue that the bill, with the red gonydeal spot not bleeding on to the upper mandible, would also arguably favour Herring more than YLGU here. I certainly wouldn't be so fast as to exclude a Herring Gull here, from somewhere within the 'greater argentatus' (i.e. not just the extreme northern birds). Indeed, I'd argue that it's much more likely to be a Herring Gull than a Yellow-legged Gull that would have to be odd in a number of respects.

 

[Tib78]

Although gulls are not my strong point I wanted to comment on this bird but Harry was faster and I pretty much agree with what he said.
To me the primary pattern looks better for herring than YLG, and anyway a complete subterminal black band on P5 isn't too rare in Herring. Compare to this one for example: http://www.gull-research.org/hg/2011b/5414557.html

 

[kuzeycem]

Okay, that's actually better as it is a lifer for me

 

[Nutcracker]

:C I really ought to know better than to comment on large gulls :-O

 

[lou salomon]

hi,

i mostly agree with what harry said. it is indeed a herring gull.
as for head striation:
1. there's hardly any adult YLG showing (strong) head striation at this time of year.
2. if head striation streatches down to lower neck like here, it is no michahellis: YLG can have dense striation but it is mostly confined to head and then abruptly stops on neck.
primary pattern is rather typical for nominate argentatus: much black on p10 but then a strong "step" leaving p9 with much less black and p5-8 having much less black than in YLG!
- reduced black on p5 is really rare in YLG but occures in about 5% of caspian gulls.
- yellow legs are rel. common in baltic (and russian) herring gulls. HG with yellow legs have been observed on western black sea coast during winter.

congrats to a lifer - and it's not too long ago that argentatus was accepted as "new" species for turkey!

 

[kuzeycem]

Oh I didn't see it yet - but rare gulls usually stick for long so I think I have a shot at it.
Last year in January 2 bird were seen which was the first record.
This year 3 individuals have been observed so far - perhaps it is just an overlooked winter visitor.

 

[lou salomon]

perhaps it is just an overlooked winter visitor.

certainly! some years ago there was no confirmed record from romania, but since many observer's abilities and consciousness have increased, now there are on average 10+ records each winter half year.