Greater or Lesser Yellow-headed Vulture (2 Viewers)

[Southern Viking]

This was taken near Christ the Redeemer in Rio less than a month ago. Do the quite contrasting underwings suggest Greater?

 

[Andy Adcock]

I can't get much from the underwing patterning but overall structure says Greater.

 

[Butty]

I wouldn't be quite convinced that it's not a TV - especially if the habitat is urban?? Though I think non-pink but odd-coloured heads are normally juvenile TVs only if they've not actually got bright yellow bits (like this has) - if you see what I mean.
Not greater yellow-headed vulture because that species has much less coverts/flight-feathers contrast, and darker inner primaries than rest of flight-feathers.
So... I guess lesser yellow-headed vulture - unless it's maybe a TV. The upperwing, and the head side-on, are what you want for ID views.

overall structure says Greater

I can't see why, I'm afraid (if you're thinking of the (one) broad-looking wing, that's just because that wing is raised as part of the regular teetering flight and so foreshortened).

 

[Andy Adcock]

Guilty of suggestion bias, I almost commented that the contrast in the underwing is far greater than I'd expect.

Attached is one of mine for contrast.

 

[Butty]

I've always taken the flight-feathers to be sheeny/reflective, so perceived paleness and contrast would depend on light and angle as well as actual paleness... Ish.

 

[Southern Viking]

I'll ask if they have any unedited ones. When I first looked I assumed Turkey Vulture but was swung by apparent bright yellow on the head

 

[Southern Viking]

Guilty of suggestion bias, I almost commented that the contrast in the underwing is far greater than I'd expect.

Attached is one of mine for contrast.

Cracking shot by the way Andy

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

It is certainly not a Greater Yellow-headed Vulture that is restricted to Amazonia and is not seen at all in this part of the country...

 

[THE_FERN]

Lesser yellow headed vulture. To note the first of the ebird headline photos shows an identical head pattern/colouration

 

[Andy Adcock]

Lesser yellow headed vulture. To note the first of the ebird headline photos shows an identical head pattern/colouration

What about the contrast in the underwing, it's glaring compared to what it should be for that species, primaries and secondaries should be at least, dusky, as in my shot? It should appear long winged and slim, this doesn't hence my initial comment on structure being more like Greater (blame that on David Ascanio's book btw)

Would be interesting if someone has the ability to provide a side by side of this and the bird on ebird.

 

[Southern Viking]

What about the contrast in the underwing, it's glaring compared to what it should be for that species, primaries and secondaries should be at least, dusky, as in my shot? It should appear long winged and slim, this doesn't hence my initial comment on structure being more like Greater (blame that on David Ascanio's book btw)

Would be interesting if someone has the ability to provide a side by side of this and the bird on ebird.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Thanks SV, I couldn't have imagined that either of these species could appear so contrasting in the under wing to the extant that everything I've looked at is misleading.

I also, still, do not think the OP could be described as slim or long winged.

 

[Southern Viking]

Thanks SV, I couldn't have imagined that either of these species could appear so contrasting in the under wing to the extant that everything I've looked at is misleading.

I also, still, do not think the OP could be described as slim or long winged.

The photo certainly doesn't look slim/long-winged but I think Butty is right in that it appears to be tilting in flight which perhaps is making it look shorter and broader winged than it is

 

[Andy Adcock]

The photo certainly doesn't look slim/long-winged but I think Butty is right in that it appears to be tilting in flight which perhaps is making it look shorter and broader winged than it is

But the bird appears to be overhead of the photographer making this suggestion less plausible IMHO, I don't think you can tell that the birds banking or turning from this shot. My shot, shows a much, slimmer bird which does look like it might be circling, I don't remember but structurally, the two are very different..

I suppose the inevitable question, are their known hybrids?

 

[Butty]

I fear I don't follow your points at all. Greater yellow-headed vulture and lesser yellow-headed vulture are different species and therefore, potentially, may have quite different underwings - and the literature does indicate that this is the case as I described in my earlier post. Your (excellent and educational) photo is a greater yellow-headed vulture, and the OP's photo is (for reasons I gave above) not of that species, so there is no necessity for there to be any similarity between them. You've lost me on this point I'm afraid.
As I pointed out in my previous post, the mere fact that the OP's bird has one wing appearing substantially broader than the other can only be due to it flying tilted to one side, which is what these species constantly and characteristically do. It's perfectly in order for it to be directly overhead when it's doing that, and the photo that we have here is what would result from that situation.
I'm afraid I don't understand what your problem is with this.
Hybrids... please, please, no. There isn't the faintest of reasons or needs to raise that as an option here.
In my opinion.

 

[Andy Adcock]

I fear I don't follow your points at all. Greater yellow-headed vulture and lesser yellow-headed vulture are different species and therefore, potentially, may have quite different underwings - and the literature does indicate that this is the case as I described in my earlier post. Your (excellent and educational) photo is a greater yellow-headed vulture, and the OP's photo is (for reasons I gave above) not of that species, so there is no necessity for there to be any similarity between them. You've lost me on this point I'm afraid.
As I pointed out in my previous post, the mere fact that the OP's bird has one wing appearing substantially broader than the other can only be due to it flying tilted to one side, which is what these species constantly and characteristically do. It's perfectly in order for it to be directly overhead when it's doing that, and the photo that we have here is what would result from that situation.
I'm afraid I don't understand what your problem is with this.
Hybrids... please, please, no. There isn't the faintest of reasons or needs to raise that as an option here.
In my opinion.

The fact that you don't understand my 'problem' is neither here nor there and I simply asked if hybrids are known and did not suggest that this is one.

If you cannot see that the OP being declared a Lesser whilst being substantially, bulkier than my Greater, raises questions, then I'm afraid you'll have to deal with that.

 

[Butty]

substantially, bulkier than my Greater

Is it? That's not apparent to me, and I think the effect you're describing is caused simply by both of the OP's bird's wings being raised away from the camera (one more than the other) and thus (both) foreshortened, whereas your bird's wings are flatter and thus look narrower. Trying to assess these sorts of differences from single photos is both difficult and unwise, especially if one is not taking account of the way that the birds fly in life.
From my understanding, and memory from the field, one does not separate turkey vulture, lesser yellow-headed vulture and greater yellow-headed vulture primarily on structure - rather, on the plumage features and bare-part colours that I've already described above; also habitat.
You raised hybridisation. I pointed out why - in my opinion - that's an inappropriate thing to do here in an ID context. It's no big deal 👍🏼

 

[THE_FERN]

In the OP pic the bird is tilted to one side. This makes the wing on one side appear fat/blunt. Look at the other side to get a truer impression. Then compare with the ebird headline image and see that the wings are identical. The pale on the underside of the wings varies with the incident light. This can make it difficult to determine the true pattern of translucence [this is true of other new world vultures in my experience]

 

[Butty]

Coo. Wish I'd already said all that.

 

[Southern Viking]

I've requested some more photos so hopefully they have them (my Mum thinks they do). They spent 3 months travelling all around South America, so apologies if at time's I can't post more than one to start with. I can always try to get some more if the species requires it. I dread to think how many they've taken (I can easily fill up half a memory card just on a day at Pagham including all the insect photos I take).

Also a slight correction on the location - Morro Sao Paulo, south of Salvador. Whether on the island or where they got the boat from she can't remember offhand