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Ceciliae and cecilae (1 Viewer)

Susan Manchester

Well-known member
I have gotten myself really confused with these two specific epithets. For Corvus cecilae, I am seeing in some places where it honors Australian amateur ornithologist Gregory Macalister Mathews' wife Cecile Marian Mathews. However, everything I am reading about Mathews' wife says the following:
"On 6 May 1902 at Parramatta he married a wealthy 37-year-old widow with two children, Marion Cecil Wynne (d.1938)".
I cannot find anything about a genus called Cecilia, which I am reading is a synonym of Halcyon.
For Metriopelia, or Gymnopelia, or Chamoepelia ceciliae, all sorts of sources, including Whose Bird? are showing that species to be named for French ornithologist Rene Primevere Lesson's daughter Cecile Gautrau. However, in Rene's genealogy, it says that he had only one daughter, with his second wife Clemence, and her name was Anais. Can someone tell me where to find valid information on these two epithets?
 
I've found these information

cecilae / Cecilia (syn. Halcyon) Cecile Marian
Mathews (1865–1938) wife of Australian ornithologist
Gregory M. Mathews (Corvus).
ceciliae • Cécile Gautrau (fl. 1845) daughter of French
naturalist René Lesson (Metriopelia). • Cecilia
Torres (1952–1985) wife of Brazilian ornithologist
Dante Martins Teixeira (Phylloscartes).

THE HELM DICTIONARY OF
SCIENTIFIC BIRD NAMES

by James Jobling

http://nature.baikal.ru/files/605/1408125013.pdf
 
Yes, Melanie, that is part of the information I was referencing, but none of that is proving to be correct. I think that all the species named by Gregory Mathews are named after his wife, but her name is Marion Cecil Wynne, not Cecile Marian. I am still trying to find out who Rene Lesson was honoring with Metriopelia ceciliae.
 
Yes, Melanie, that is part of the information I was referencing, but none of that is proving to be correct. I think that all the species named by Gregory Mathews are named after his wife, but her name is Marion Cecil Wynne, not Cecile Marian. I am still trying to find out who Rene Lesson was honoring with Metriopelia ceciliae.

Susan,
Look at it this way - you're not confused - instead you have clearly identified an anomaly!

Just to add a very minor clarifying detail, it was a custom sometimes observed amongst UK resident or emigrant UK families at the turn of the 19th century that a girl child received a middle name that reflected a grandfather's (usually - it could be an earlier generation relative) first name or surname, possibly to mollify a family ego, but more likely to ensure a mention in a family will.

My mother received a middle name this way from three generations previously. She knew of several female friends and acquaintances who shared this experience - many had amended or changed their names to more usual female choices, most informally, but some by deed poll. This fact may help or hinder your enquiry, thus truly making you confused!;)
MJB
 
I am still trying to find out who Rene Lesson was honoring with Metriopelia ceciliae.

Here, here, and here, it is said that his first wife, Zoë Massiou, died in 1819 while giving birth to a daughter ("Cécile", "Cécile-Estelle-Atala", "Cécile Eustelle Atala", depending on the document).
He further lost his second wife, Marie Clémence Dumont de Sainte-Croix, from cholera in 1834; his second daughter Anaïs, at 10, in 1838; and his first daughter in 1845.

Laurent -
 
Hearty thanks to Susan for introducing this thread and to Laurent for the insight into Lessonian genealogy, which has enabled me to resolve a long outstanding query regarding Ornismya atala Lesson, 1832 (Gould's 1861 "Atala's Emerald") (syn. Chlorostilbon caniveti caribaeus), and to add more detail to entries under clemenciae and clementiae.
Regarding Mrs Mathews, I am inclined towards Marion Cecil Mathews, altho' her stepson, Owen E. Wynne, gives her name as Cecil Marian Mathews nee White in his Biographical Key (1969), and I have always assumed he knew what his stepmother's correct names were!
 
Ornismya atala named in 1832 and Cécile-Estelle-Atala named in 1819 may have just been named by Lesson after the same thing the female hero of the novel Atala ou les amours de deux savages dons le desert, Chateaubriand (1801). Ornismaya atala is in the same publication where Lesson named Ornismya cora also named after a fictional new world native "princess".
 
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OK, James, I found the following genealogy on "Marian Cecily White, called Cecily"
http://www.whosyerdad-e.com/families-w/individual.php?pid=I89&ged=white.ged
According to this, Richard Owen, Owen Wynne was Marian Cecily White's son, and not her stepson. I am not really sure why he did not have her correct name in his Biographical Key.

I am with you on conundrums. I am trying to thread my way through a confusing mess with the epithet Anais. Thank you for sharing about Atala's Emerald, because hummingbirds are a big focus of ours, and another unit.
 
I regularly read information about splits and such in here, not that I understand it that well. However, the information shown here is what I gathered on two birds named variously after both of Lesson's daughters. I cannot find anything on the progression between the first names for these two birds, and the names currently in use. My main question is, why so many authors and so many names? My second question is, where can I find information showing splits or combinations or whatever would take me from beginning to end.

Bare-faced Ground Dove
Metriopelia ceciliae Lesson 1845

Metriopelia ceciliae ceciliae Lesson 1845 (Nominate subspecies) IBC

Chamaepelia anais Lesson 1845
Écho du Monde Savant,12,1er semestre, column 8 (modern equivalent
Metriopelia ceciliae ceciliae)

Columba (Chamaepelia) cecilioe (sic) Lesson, Echo du Monde Savant, January
12, 1845, p. 8; (Reprinted papers, p. 729, 1913) Peru.

Columba (Chamaepelia) anais Lesson 1847 (is antedated by Columba [Chamoepelia] ceciliae Lesson 1845)
Histoire naturelle,générale et particulière des mammifères et des oiseaux
découverts depuis la mort de Buffon, Tome 9, Oiseaux, p 210 (modern equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae ceciliae)

Metriopelia anais Bonaparte1855 (listed elsewhere as Bare-eyed Pigeon)
Conspectus Generum Avium, sig. 8-15, p. 76 [vol. 2] (modern equivalent
Metriopelia ceciliae ceciliae)

Peristera anais G. R. Gray 1856 (listed elsewhere as Bare-eyed Pigeon)
List of the specimens of birds in the collection of the British Museum, Part 4,
Columbae, p. 53 (modern equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae ceciliae)

Metriopeleia anais Reichenbach 1862
Die vollständigste Naturgeschichte der Tauben und Taubenartigen Vögel:Columbariae: neu entdeckte Taubenvögel und Nachträge, etc,1, p. 18. (modern equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae ceciliae)

Metriopeleia erythrothorax G. R. Gray 1870
Hand-list of the genera and species of birds in the British Museum, 2, p.
242, no. 9372 (modern equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae ceciliae)

Gymnopelia erythrothrorax P. L. Sclater & Salvin 1873
Nomenclator avium neotropicalium, pp.133,156. (another name for
Metriopelia ceciliae ceciliae)
*Notes: Gyrnnopelia erythrothorax, the single species of a monotypic genus,
put by Salvadori in this subfamily, has been placed now in the genus
Metriopelia under the name of Metriopelia ceciliae (Peters 3, : 102)

Gymnopelia anais von Berlepsch & Stolzmann 1902
Proceedings of the General Meetings for Scientific Business of the
Zoological Society of London, no. 2, p. 44 (Tarma, Junín) (modern
equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae ceciliae)

Gymnopelia ceciliae ceciliae Chubb 1919
Ibis,11th series, 1, p. 37 (part: Marca, Ancash, & San Mateo & Chosica,
Lima) (modern equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae ceciliae)

Metriopelia ceciliae ceciliae Peters,1937 Checklist of Birds of the World, 3, p.102

Metriopelia ceciliae gymnops Bonaparte 1855 (possible invalid subspecies)

Gymnopelia ceciliae gymnops [as ceciliæ] Chubb (ex "Gray MS") 1917
Bulletin of the British Ornithologists' Club, 38, p. 18 (Challapata, 3750
metres, Bolivia)

Columba erythrothorax Meyen 1833
Nova Acta Academia Caesarea Leopoldino-Carol Germanica
Curiosorum, Halle,16, Suppl. p. 98 pl. xvi (Pisacoma, Arequipa, Peru).
Not Columba erythrothorax Temminck 1809 (modern equivalent
Metropelia ceciliae gymnops)

Columba monticola von Tschudi 1844
Untersuchungen über die Fauna Peruana, Ornithologie, mit Anmerkung von
J. Cabanis, pp. 45, 276 (New name for Columba erythrothorax Mayen, 1834)
Not Columba monticola Vieillot 1818 (modern equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae
gymnops)

Columbina erythrothorax [as C[olumbina]] G. R. Gray 1845 (June) ["1849"]
The Genera of Birds, Pt. 14, iii, Gourinae, Columbina sp. 4 [=bound vol. 2, p. [474] (modern equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae gymnops)

Columbina monticola Reichenbach 1848
Synopsis avium, fig. 1408 (modern equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae gymnops)

Columbula erythrothorax Bonaparte 1855 ["1857"]
Conspectus Generum Avium, sig. 8-15 (May), p. 78 [=vol.2]

Chamaepelia anais Bonaparte 1855
Comptes Rendus hebdomadaires des séances de l'Académie des Sciences,Paris,40(Jan.), p.23 ("Sacora" [=Tacora], Tacna, Chile [now south Peru]) Not Chamaepelia anais Lesson 1845 (modern equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae gymnops)

Chamaepelia erythrothorax P. L. Sclater & Salvin 1868 ["1867"]
Proceedings of the Scientific Meetings of the Zoological Society of London for the Year 1867, Pt. III (April), p.989 (Arequipa) (modern equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae gymnops)

Gymnopelia erythrothorax Allen 1876
Bulletin of the Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University, 3, p. 355 (Moho,Lake Titicaca) (modern equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae gymnops)

Gymnopelia anais von Berlepsch & Stolzmann 1906
Ornis, 13, p 130 (Puno, Peru) Not Chamaepelia anais Lesson 1845 (modern equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae gymnops)

Gymnopelia ceciliae gymnops Hellmayr 1942
Field Museum of Natural History, Zoological Series, 13, Part 1, no.1, p 512
(modern equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae gymnops)

Metriopelia ceciliae zimmeri Peters, JL 1937 (Subspecies) IBC
Checklist of Birds of the World, 3, p.102 (New name for Gymnopelia ceciliae gymnops)

Metriopelia ceciliae obsoleta Zimmer, JT 1924 (possibly invalid subspecies) IBC

Gymnopelia ceciliae obsoleta Zimmer 1924
Field Mus. Nat. Hist. Publ., Zool. Ser 12, No. 4, p. 51, Cullcui, Maranon
River, Peru; Field Mus. Nat. Hist.

Gymnopelia erythrothorax Salvin 1895
Novitates Zoologicae, 2, p 21 (Cajabamba, Huamacucho & near
Cajamarca, Peru) Not Columba erythrothorax Meyen 1834 (modern
equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae obsoleta)

Gymnopelia ceciliae ceciliae Chubb 1919
Ibis, 11th series 1, p 37 (part: Cajabamba and Huamachuco) (modern equivalent Metriopelia ceciliae obsoleta)

Metriopelia ceciliae obsoleta Peters, JL 1937 (2nd author, same name)
Checklist of Birds of the World, 3, p. 102)
*Notes: Peters assumed that Chubb's name was already used by Chamaepelia gymnops Bonaparte,1855. But Bonaparte used this name only as a synonym of his Chamaepelia anais, quoting the name from G. R. Gray's British Museum labels. Bonaparte wrote: "3. Chamaepelia anais Lesson (gymnops, Gray) Museum British 1854." Thus the name is not available, under ICZN Article 11.6, so it wasn’t already used before Chubb’s name

Other names:
Columba (Chamoepelia) ceciliae Lesson 1845 IBC (Renamed Columba
[Chamoepelia] anais Lesson 1847)
Écho du Monde Savant,12,1er semestre, column 8


Notes:
Ground Dove is a name given to several species of pigeon and especially the Chamoepelia of warmer parts of America.


Bare-eyed Pigeon
Patageoenis corensis Jacquin 1784

Synonyms:
Columba corensis Jacquin 1784

Other names
Peristera anais Bare-eyed Pigeon
List of the Specimens of Birds in the Collection of the British Museum, 2nd ed, 4, [Peristera], pg 53

Columba anais Lesson 1847
Description de mammifères et d'oiseaux récemment découverts; précédée d'un Tableau sur les races humaines, p. 210
Chaemepelia gymnops G. R. Gray MSS

Metriopelia anais Prince Bonaparte
Conspectus Generum Avium, ii, p. 76

Chamaeopelia PL Sclater 1864, Chamaepelea von Tschudi 1846, Chamaepeleia Reichenbach 1853, Chamaepelia Swainson 1837, Chamaepilea H. Bryant 1866, Chamapelia P. L. Sclater 1857, Chamepelia Lesson 1831 (Emendation of Chaemepelia), Chamoepelia Jardine 1849 (Emendation of Chaemepelia
 
Marian's Crows ... ceciliae and marianæ

Sorry to reopen this old thread, but I feel like I might have something to add (however not considering Susan's ceciliae), but on Mrs. Mathews, discussed in (Posts #1, 3, 4 & 6) ...
...
Regarding Mrs Mathews, I am inclined towards Marion Cecil Mathews, altho' her stepson, Owen E. Wynne, gives her name as Cecil Marian Mathews nee White in his Biographical Key (1969), and I have always assumed he knew what his stepmother's correct names were!
James, I think you´ve simply confused "Owen E. Wynne" with Richard Owen Wynne, who was related to the Mathews couple.

After the conclusion in thread Colonel "Owen E. Wynne" … who´s he? (here), that the (Eponym) Author Colonel "Owen E. Wynne", is equal of Colonel Owen Evelyn Wynne (1887-1974), I feel there´s little reason to question Wynne's claim that Mrs. Mathews name did was "Marian Cecil Mathews" née White (or first names the opposite way around!), and I think the entry in your Helm Dictionary of Scientific Bird names (2010), attached, was more correct than the "Marion Cecil Mathews née White (d. 1938)" in today's HBW Alive Key.

Thereby I think Wynne [even if not (closely) related at all] did have the correct name in his Key (of 1969)!

Also consider the fact that Mrs. Mathews supposedly was/is commemorated in yet another bird, yet another Crow … the maria one, as in:
● the invalid "Corvus marianæ" MATHEWS 1911 (here) [syn. Corvus coronoides VIGORS & HORSFIELD 1827], no dedication nor explanation (in Gregory M. Mathews's usual way):
"Corvus marianæ Mathews, replaces C. australis, Gould (preoccupied)"

And I (strongly) doubt that Mr. Mathews himself would have miss-spelled the name of his own Wife?

I would say this commemorate Marian Cecile Mathews (18651938), née White a k a Marian Cecile Wynne (alt. Marian Cecil*), but if ever called "Cecily" (as claimed by Susan, in Post #8) I do not know, however I see no reason why she couldn´t have been called so.

In any case: Mrs. Mathews was born 1865, in Liverpool Plains, New South Wales, Australia, … her first husband was Henry John Wynne (1859–1898), she married Gregory Macalister Mathews (1876–1949) on the 6th of May 1902, at Parramatta … and she died 12 January 1938, in Winchester, Hampshire, England (here and here).

Don´t hesitate to prove me wrong!

As earlier noted, in this lingering thread; she´s also claimed to be commemorated in Corvus cecilae (Torresian crow) MATHEWS 1912 (here, also without any explanation whatsoever) as "Corvus coronoides cecilae".

In any case it makes one wonder why Mr. Mathews, when dealing with Crows, repeatedly came to think of his wife?

Björn

PS. Not to confuse (which has been done) with the scientific name mariannae, referring to Marianne Islands (Mariana Is.), in the Pacific Ocean. The Crow above had/has (from what I can tell) nothing to with those Islands.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________
*Note that she is called "Marion Cecil" in the entry for Gregory Macalister Mathews (here), in the normally very trustworthy Australian Dictionary of Biography as well as in today's HBW Alive Key. However, in this case I choose to trust what´s written by her husband Mr. Mathews. Surely the latter wouldn´t have missed to spell the crows name according to the true name of his wife?
---
 

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Björn,
Many thanks for your update with attachments. I have clarified cecilae, Cecilia, marianae, and Marianornis, and brought them all into line (marianae and Marianornis already had her correct dates of birth and death, but cecilae and Cecilia had only "(d. 1938)")! The Mathews brood continue to cause us problems!
James
 
... The Mathews brood continue to cause us problems!
James
They certainly do ...

The same Genealogy pages also gives us some additional info on the Australian, British Army Colonel Richard Owen Wynne* (18921967) a k a "Reggie" (here), Step-son of the Australian ornithologist Gregory M. Mathews, Son of Mrs. Mathews (earlier Wynne) née White.

For what it´s worth. ;)

Björn
___________________________________________________________
*commemorated in several invalid, synonymous birds (i.e. oweni).
Why he earlier has been claimed to have pass away in 1969 is unknown to me.
----
 
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By the way ...

Richard Owen Wynne's Sister: Step-daughter of Mathews, was also (as claimed) commemorated in several birds, for example:

• the subspecies Pelagodroma marina dulciae MATHEWS 1912
• ... as well as in "dulcei" and "dulciei"
= Dulcie Mirian Wynne (18941977), and not Dulcie Marian ...

Born 1894 in Ashfield, Sydney, Australia ... died 6 May 1977, in Kent, England (here).

This said without having checked any of the OD's. And based on nothing more than the link above!

So take this post for what it´s worth!

Björn

PS. If she´s also commemorated in "Dulciornis" ... ? Well, I don´t know. The Latin dulcis (delightful) + ornis could, in my (non-Latin) mind, be as good an explanation? Surely a Tawny Grassbird Megalurus timoriensis could be interpreted as a delightful (little) bird?
 
Already solved in # 13
But as The Eponym Dictionary of Birds had some more (and wrong details):
Grassbird genus Dulciornis Mathews, 1912 NCR [Now in Megalurus]
White-cheeked Honeyeater ssp. Meliornis nigra dulciei Mathews, 1911 NCR [JS Phylidonyris niger gouldii]
Tawny Grassbird ssp. Megalurus alisteri dulciei Mathews, 1912 NCR [JS Megalurus timoriensis alisteri]
White-faced Storm-petrel ssp. Pelagodroma marina dulciae Mathews, 1912
Dulcie Marian Wynne (b.1894) was the stepdaughter of the describer, G. M. Mathews.

Just to add ODs to Björns post # 13 (with some additionals)
  • Dulciornis Mathews, 1912 OD here
  • Meliornis nigra dulciei Mathews, 1911 OD here
  • Pelagodroma marina dulciae Mathews, 1912 OD here
  • Ptilonorhynchus violaceus dulciae Mathews, 1912 OD here
  • Psephotus dulciei Mathews, 1911 OD here
Take it for what's worth.
 
Marian I think (attached and at least 25 different records)

Dulcie Marian Wynne
Birth2 May 1894 Ashfield, New South Wales, Australia
Marriage1925 Randwick, New South Wales, Australia
Death6 May 1977 Chislehurst, Kent, England
FatherHenry John Wynne (1859-1898)
MotherMarian Cecil White (1865-1938)
SpouseHerbert C Hornery (Born 1900)
 

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Quick return to this old topic (simply as I happened to notice it, when once again trying to trace some of the many names coined by Mr Mathews) ... this time we're dealing with the (actual) full name of Miss Dulcie Wynne (plausibly, if adopted, later Miss Mathews?), step-daughter of the Author (Auctor) Gregory Macalister Mathews (1876-1949).

Marian I think (attached and at least 25 different records)

Dulcie Marian Wynne
Birth2 May 1894 Ashfield, New South Wales, Australia
Marriage1925 Randwick, New South Wales, Australia
Death6 May 1977 Chislehurst, Kent, England
FatherHenry John Wynne (1859-1898)
MotherMarian Cecil White (1865-1938)
SpouseHerbert C Hornery (Born 1900)
Paul, if so, meaning that the People Australia page (in post #13), kept by the National Centre of Biography (of the Australian National University) is in error ... !?

Rare, but (certainly) not unheard of ... ;)

Disclaimer: Note that I (in post #13) wrote: ... "based on nothing more than the link above!"

Meaning; in short; if they were wrong, so was I, back in 2016, and the correct answer is still unknown to me (simply as I haven't returned to this topic/sidetrack since). Neither one of those Birds (nor the dedicatee involved) are "mine".

Also note that Jobling's The Helm Dictionary of Scientific Bird Names (2010) had/has Dulciornis, and the name of the dedicatee, as:

Jobling. 2010.jpg


... which differs (somewhat) with today's Key [my bold red]:
dulciae / dulciei
Dulcie Mirian Wynne (1894-1977) step-daughter of Australian ornithologist Gregory Mathews (subsp. Pelagodroma marina, syn. Phylidonyris niger gouldii, syn. Psephotellus varius, syn. Ptilonorhynchus violaceus).
Dulciornis
(Locustellidae; syn. Cincloramphus Tawny Grassbird C. timoriensis alisteri) Dulcie Mirian Wynne (1894-1977) step-daughter of Australian ornithologist Gregory Mathews; ...

Thus, what should it be: Mirian or Marian ... (or even the alternate version "Marion", as mentioned in Paul's attached document, in post #15) ... ?

Also note that her mother (according to the same People Australia page) was Marian Cecile (Cecil) Wynne/Mathews, which, to me, would talk in favour of the latter ...

Paul, have you seen a, or any (Original) official record/s (of either Birth, Baptism, Marriage, etc.) ... ?

Björn

PS. Another observation, talking less in favour of trusting (relying on) the Australian National Centre of Biography page would be another Family member, by the (alleged) name: "Wynne, Florence Mariamne". What kind of name is "Mariamne"? Yet another typo?

If so, for a 'Biography' page those Aussies seems ... well, a bit careless (alt. even sloppy).

/B
 
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PS. Another observation, talking less in favour of trusting (relying on) the Australian National Centre of Biography page would be their way of listing her step-sister: "Wynne, Florence Mariamne". What kind of name is "Mariamne"? Yet another typo?

This is the name as it appears on her grave, and as it was spelled in two death notices in the Sydney Morning Herald.
 
Thanks Laurent ... odd name/version.:rolleyes:

However back to Miss Dulcie Wynne ...

Also see the following text, in the Book Daisy in exile –A Diary of an Australian Schoolgirl in France 1887–1889, by Marc Serge Rivière, National Library of Australia, Canberra, 2003 (here), in which we (on page 17) find the following phrases:
... Cecily White married John Wynne, on 18 March 1891. The subsequently had a son, Richard Owen Wynne, and a daughter, Marion Dulcie Wynne. ...
Following the early death of John Wynne, Cecily was to meet the future celebrated ornithologist, Gregory M. Mathews, CBE. In his autobiography Birds and Books, Mathews tells of his lonely days as a bachelor ...
She's also mentioned, again, as such (and the opposite way around): "Marion Dulcie", on page 25.

Thus, Mirian or Marian or Marion ... (first, or second Given name)?!?

Also note her Mother's name (in particular text this text) "Cecily".

An Original official document most certainly seems needed ...

Björn
 
The quote above (in post#18) might also concern the names like; cecilae (and Cecilia, incl. Ceciliella), as well as marianae (and Marianornis) and mathewsae (that is, re. the full name of Mathews wife, that he married 6 May 1902), in today's Key explained as:
cecilae
Marian Cecile Mathews née White (1865-1938) wife of Australian ornithologist Gregory M. Mathews (subsp. Corvus orru, syn. Geophaps smithii, syn. Platycercus eximius elecica).
● ...
Cecilia
(Alcedinidae; syn. Halcyon Ϯ Black-capped Kingfisher H. pileata) Marian Cecile Mathews née White (1865-1938) wife of Australian ornithologist Gregory M. Mathews; "
marianae
● ...
● Marian Cecile Mathews née White (1865-1938) wife of Australian ornithologist Gregory M. Mathews (syn. Acanthiza robustirostris, syn. Corvus coronoides).
● ...
Marianornis
(Turnicidae; syn. Turnix Painted Buttonquail T. varius) Marian Cecile Mathews née White (1865-1938) wife of Australian ornithologist Gregory M. Mathews; ...
mathewsae
Marion Cecil Mathews née White (1865-1938) wife of ornithologist Gregory M. Mathews (subsp. Ardea sumatrana, syn. Gerygone modesta).

Also compare with the entry for Mr Mathews himself, in the (normally trustworthy) Australian Dictionary of Biography (here), where his wife is mentioned as: "Marion Cecil Wynne (d.1938), daughter of H. C. White ..." :unsure:

Isn't 'Cecil' a Male name? If not her nick-name (in the Family), of course ...

Björn

PS. Also compare with post #10 in this thread (from way back in 2016).

To me, finding an Official Original document also of Mrs Mathews seems to be in need.

/B
 
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