Ash-throated or Nutting's Flycatcher (1 Viewer)

[chipperatl]

I only ask as this bird we have been calling this an Ash-throated, opened wide and showed off an orange upper, inner mandible this afternoon. Lee and Birch call this out as one characteristic to separate the two, pro-Nutting's. I've read same in other places, and one place said don't use it as sole ID.
Here is link to others eBird pics of the same bird. Thank you in advance.

 

[THE_FERN]

Undertail pattern confirms Nutting's: rufous extends to tail tip. Also, rufous on wind (somewhat) blends into the white. I'm surprised at how bright white the wings are: the covert tips especially are generally very subdued in this species (to the point that the wing bars are scarcely present)

 

[chipperatl]

Undertail pattern confirms Nutting's: rufous extends to tail tip. Also, rufous on wind (somewhat) blends into the white. I'm surprised at how bright white the wings are: the covert tips especially are generally very subdued in this species (to the point that the wing bars are scarcely present)

We have had quite a discussion on our Discord about this. Consensus is Ash-throated Flycatcher (except for me asking questions). I'll note I didn't put that this bird is in SW Michigan, so nowhere close to where Nutting's is normally seen. Pic was posted on a juvenal ATFL with orange inner upper mandible, so I'm further confused by what the field guides, even specialized one, have to say on these two.

 

[THE_FERN]

We have had quite a discussion on our Discord about this. Consensus is Ash-throated Flycatcher (except for me asking questions). I'll note I didn't put that this bird is in SW Michigan, so nowhere close to where Nutting's is normally seen. Pic was posted on a juvenal ATFL with orange inner upper mandible, so I'm further confused by what the field guides, even specialized one, have to say on these two.

I was looking at Vallely and Dyer (attached) which illustrates the undertail of each. As I noted, the wing white is unusually strong here. Normally in Nutting's the gradation of rufous into white is far more gradual and the blending extensive than what we see here but doubtless there's some individual variation. The strength of the wing bars is much more surprising to me: I wondered if some camera setting or similar was to blame

(I've not heard of the orange inner mandible character)

 

[njlarsen]

Quoting from BOTW for Ash-throated, with my added bold

Central pair of rectrices (R1) and outer webs r2–5 blackish brown; outer web R6 paler. Inner webs of r2–6 extensively rufous with dark tips; small percentage of individuals may lack completely dark tips and/or have a narrow (<1 mm) dark stripe along the shaft, thus superficially resembling pattern of Brown-crested or Great Crested flycatchers (Lanyon 1961). Mouth-lining usually dusky pink or yellowish pink. Juveniles generally paler than adults, with yellowish-white belly, buffy- or rusty-edged secondaries and upperwing coverts, and more extensively rufous tail.

Pyle says Mouth lining Flesh-colored, does not include Nuttings

For Nuttings, BOTW

inside of mouth orange.

Hope this is of some help
Niels

 

[chipperatl]

Quoting from BOTW for Ash-throated, with my added bold

Pyle says Mouth lining Flesh-colored, does not include Nuttings

For Nuttings, BOTW

Hope this is of some help
Niels

Someone on our Discord server found pics of Ash-throated juvenile with orange mouth lining, so the definitive references apparently are not accurate on that part. I've yet to hear it and I don't think anyone else has recorded it yet. Thank you all for help.