hybrid shrike - pretty thing! Jura, Eastern France (1 Viewer)

nickderry · May 21, 2010

What can be made of these photos then? - there are better ones out there on the net somewhere, but this is the best I could manage - quite difficult to stay concentrated when 2 quail are singing right next to you (and remaining hidden - the sods!) So no lifer today (quail) though one of the parents of this bird should have been a lifer - opinion at the moment is Lesser Grey x Woodchat. I'm not sure how to exclude Red-backed x Lesser Grey - especially as I don't know what either would look like.

IMO, the LGS similarity is clear, in the field it could look exactly like one - though the wings are too short, the tail too long and the white patch at the base of the primaries too small - the bill was nice and chunky

the scaps and the almost white rump favour woodchat, but I'm not sure how the head pattern of a woodchat has been almost completely 'absorbed', the fact it was courting a female red-backed shrike may be of no significance, as his dad had no idea what species to mate with himself.

It was singing, producing lots of mimicry - he does an excellent Corn Bunting! The commonest call was a dry "drreu" "drreu" - got a bit of footage which I'll stick on Youtube.

Also got sketches, but they add nothing - apart from a bit of the undertail pattern.

htcdude · May 21, 2010

Which photo's? ;-)

nickderry · May 21, 2010

htcdude said:
Which photo's? ;-)

patience - internet explorer wouldn't open the uploader, so we're trying on Firefox! o

EDIT that's better!

htcdude · May 21, 2010

Heh!

Looks like it's met a Wheatear or something!?! Strange but very pretty as you say!

gropperwinch · May 21, 2010

brand new species!! named after its finder of course-lanius nickderryous

nickderry · May 21, 2010

gropperwinch said:
brand new species!! named after its finder of course-lanius nickderryous

Gropper- would be nice - except I didn't find it - I became a dirty twitcher again for the day. Though I did manage to relocate it (so few birders here never anyone to put you onto a bird), which was nice as I misread the directions and nearly ended up driving along the new TGV track.

Htcdude - you're right - it really reminded me of wheatear in some poses - even had a whitish (very pale grey) rump!

Dimitris · May 21, 2010

Masked Shrike should explain the buffish underparts and also the lack of any red on the head. So Masked x Lesser Grey?

gropperwinch · May 21, 2010

Dimitris said:
Masked Shrike should explain the buffish underparts and also the lack of any red on the head. So Masked x Lesser Grey?

nice idea, and I thought it myself at first, but unless Nick travelled quite a way from Bescanson Geography might have something to say about this!

nickderry · May 21, 2010

gropperwinch said:
nice idea, and I thought it myself at first, but unless Nick travelled quite a way from Bescanson Geography might have something to say about this!

I considered masked, but ruled it out as it is just as problematic as woodchat for the black back and head pattern (though different, equally distinctive) - masked is also a smaller bird - this was quite hefty (though same size as RBS in direct comparison) Geography too helps decide against Masked - though still could be possible, Lesser Grey is a rare bird in France, and a VERY rare bird in the region Woodchat is a very rare breeder in the region! RB is the common one.

Whatever it ends up being, at least half of its parentage is very rare for here.

lou salomon · May 21, 2010

without reading nick's text my first reaction was also LBS x woodchat. it has a grey back which should exclude a red-backed shrike. white shoulder patches from woodchat, black forehead from LBS. LBS's belly can be strongly rosy coloured, in this case looks more orangey but still a strong underparts colour. let's wait for more opinions.

phil baber · May 21, 2010

Nick,

Have you cosidered L.meridionalis as a possible contender for one of the parents?
Or even L. excubitor?
I'm thinking an adult LGS would prefer a partner that mostly resembled itself in patternation. Am also getting hints of the other Grey Shrikes in its morphology. But perhaps that's just me! Also you said it was showing interest in an RBS? Very confusing!
The white shoulder blazes may be a result of one of those crosses, but would that result in the size of those patches? Hence the Woodchat hypothesis...Difficult this!

phil baber · May 21, 2010

Scroll down and have a look at another LGS with a question mark over its provenance....

http://www.surfbirds.com/cgi-bin/ga...photographer=&location=&county=Malta&start=21

gropperwinch · May 21, 2010

looks a lot like our bird!

and if it is as feasible as the others I would be uite tempted to go for LSG/Masked Shrike

with a white wing-patch like that it has to have either GGS, MS or WS in it somewhere.

alternatively, could it be a Great Grey Shrike x Red-backed Shrike? although GGS has a white 'eyebrow kinda thing' above black mask I believe?

Red-backed x Woodchat or Masked might work too, if you ignore the grey back as some random mutation.

I have a feeling this will get pretty interesting!

edit: I just realised I have left one feature (grey back) out as a possible random mutation, to accomodate for another (white wing patch) sorry for hypocrisy here, and if someone can make all this fit together in a better way than me I wish you all the best :t:

nickderry · May 21, 2010

I thought about southern grey/great grey - as this bird did seem quite robust, but it was the same size as the Red back it was courting. Hopefully it'll stay a little longer, and we'll be able to get more info on it - it certainly seemed settled. Even more interesting would be if it bred with the red backs.

Merlin · May 22, 2010

Nick,

You should have quail by now especially in the Jura!!!!

Definately Woodchat in there somewhere.
best regards
Merlin

phil baber · May 22, 2010

Nick,

Return and hunt a feather down! A DNA analysis will cure my aching head!

As to the Quail? Go for it. I think you know we both need them! This could be your big chance!

gropperwinch · May 22, 2010

as a final note, if it was courting RB Shrikes that may give a pretty good indicator as to half it's origin. Or it may give an indicator as to how desperate it is for some action!

'm actually now wondering a bit about what a Great Grey x Lesser Grey that bred with a Red-backed would look like!

John Cantelo · May 22, 2010

In the context, and given the plumage, Red-backed Shrike seems a given. However, I'm not sure that, when 'alien' genes are thrown into the mix, the resultant plumage necessarily mirrors that of the unknown parent. Some features may indicate who's the daddy (or mummy), but as I understand it may also be a throwback to some common 'ancestral' traits. In short, speculation about whether the other genes come from Woodchat or Lesser Grey or 'Southern' Grey (Masked is too far off the wall for me) will remain just that until some genetic material can help us make a definitive judgement. In the meantime, my gut feeling tends towards RBS & Woodchat!

StevePreddy · May 22, 2010

Woodchat x Red-backed is probably the answer here. To quote from Lefranc & Worfolk, Shrikes, in the Helm series:

"Six mixed L. senator / L. collurio pairs were found in France between 1985 and 1996 in Aisne (1985), Vosges and Alpes-Maritimes (1988), Bas-Rhin (1990), Dordogne (19930 and Corsica (1996). ... Apart from two exceptions (Bas-Rhin and Corsica), the observations took place in area where the Woodchat is now very rare and has long since stopped breeding. Three pairs (Alpes-Maritimes, Bas-Rhin and Corsica) managed to produce young (see photos in Lefranc et al 1989) ... Records of adult hybrids are very rare, but at least three such birds have been observed recently in France: one near Bordeaux (Gironde) in late July 1994, one near Valenciennes (Nord) in late June 1995 and one near Sables d'Olonnes (Vendee) on 14 August 1995. The bird seen near Valenciennes is illustrated on plate 11 based on photos and drawing made in the field"

The bird is actually illustrated in plate 15, not plate 11, but it looks almost exactly like your bird. The only differences being that the Valenciennes bird doesn't have the extensive white fringes to the wing-feathers, and that the apricot tones on the underparts are less extensive. Both features I think are explainable by degree of wear / sun-bleaching due to the difference in dates.

I would just add that what was originally thought to be Hungary's first Long-tailed Shrike is now thought to have been a hybrid Woodchat x Lesser Grey (see Birding World 13:457). I don't have any further detail on its appearance, but I'm guessing it may also have looked something like your bird.

nickderry · May 22, 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viEv2FOFWds

here's a little video of it, if you watch to the end you can see my tatty scope, moth-eaten jumper and a rather shapely elbow!

Thanks for the replies so far. Interesting what the literature throws up, shame that I don't have access to these books - certainly before I saw the bird I saw a Red-back in it - but in the field the superficial ressemblance to Lesser Grey is striking - well, around the head it is. Statistically, Woodchat x RB is the most likely pairing - interesting how the back turns grey though.

hybrid shrike - pretty thing! Jura, Eastern France (1 Viewer)

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