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  1. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    I think there is some misunderstanding here. The 2% figure mostly comes from comparing sister species that are considered each considered "good species", specifically birds (I rarely (if ever?) have seen people suggest using this for other critters, including mammals). A species can have more or...
  2. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    Yeah I am not a gull expert AT ALL, but I have never really heard voice being used to ID similar gull species, nor that voice was all that important within gulls anyway. So I was surprised to see this being used as evidence.
  3. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    This assumes that all subspecies are valid. A LOT of subspecies probably represent nondiagnostic populations or segments of a continuous cline. Subspecies just largely get ignored unless people think a certain subspecies should be treated as a species. I suspect that might factor into the...
  4. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    I am skeptical that the Thayer's Gull situation can be resolved without detailed study of nesting birds in the Arctic. For example, maybe they start forming pair bonds in the south, but do these persist? or do they break up during migration or on nesting grounds. To verify that, you would...
  5. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    I am skeptical that "citizen science" can help with the Thayer's Gull situation, given that the hybridization that is occurring would be in the high arctic. Not exactly an easy area for the average birder to assess!
  6. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    Mitochondrial Control region DNA is considered to no longer be sufficient for the purpose of taxonomic change. It doesn't surprise me that it hasn't been acted upon.
  7. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    Indeed the Yellow-rumped Warbler case is a perfect example of how people who claim to use the same species concept can still argue over its interpretation. Some of the people voting no were using a far more strict version of BSC than the people who voted yes, specifically discounting postzygotic...
  8. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    H&M has legal barriers tied to the endowment that funds the checklist that prevents them from directly participating in the WGAC, IIRC. However some of the people behind that checklist are on the WGAC committee. So in some informal sense H&M is involved TIF is a great resource and I respect...
  9. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    For hybridization, it's not specifically if the hybrids are sterile or otherwise incapable of producing offspring, but rather if the hybrids have reduced fitness. Of course, being less fertile goes into that, but it also could mean a hybrid being less attractive to either species for mating...
  10. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    I recall one of IOC folks commenting here that IOC at least is putting a "hold" on new decisions relating to taxonomic change. The changes coming through here are either from the WGAC process or from decisions made by the North or South American checklist committees. Hence why we saw Northern...
  11. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    They very irregularly post updates, I don't think anyone should read anything more into that. We know that the process is ongoing from comments made by IOC and references in the SACC checklist proposals and it seems like all of the world bird checklists are still onboard. That they are moving...
  12. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    BSC in the matter of gulls has always trumped genetic divergence. It's possible we will see more lumps in the group, just as we recently saw Thayer's and Iceland Gulls lumped.
  13. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    2% is sometimes used as a rough approximation, although a more accurate way to look at thing is to compare the % divergence between populations with other divergences in that same family, to determine if the %divergence is greater than one would expect for that group. With the huge caveat of...
  14. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    Any sort of standard/threshold is going to be very difficult to apply across all bird groups. As an example, say you decide to use a % genetic divergence, and define the threshold as a specific number. The problem there is that number will be effected by generation time: faster breeding species...
  15. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    I have no idea where you got the idea that WGAC should be finished by now; There certainly was nothing from WGAC suggesting this would take a year or less. This isn't simply a matter of someone creating a big list of discrepancies and the group asking whether something should be recognized or...
  16. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    Yeah, WGAC are continuing to make progress, they just don't necessarily share that progress on their webpage. Just look at the changes Clements and IOC have made. Almost all of the changes have been part of the reconciliation process. Wouldn't surprise me if at they are rate they are going the...
  17. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    This is pretty much the reason why no one applies subspecies to fossil taxa, except in a few cases (mostly dealing with Holocene/Pleistocene taxa). Even with large sample sizes of still extant taxa, subspecies can be hard to define. Now imagine if your sample size is just a handful of humeri.
  18. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    You are intentionally implying that taxonomic researchers are intentionally lying so they can get some lower impact papers out, the same papers that major universities won't give a crap about as far as tenure goes nor which will help there grant writing. You are effectively accusing the folks...
  19. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    I don't work on birds of course, but my experience has been similar with working on other taxonomic groups. There is a serious concern in fact, at least amongst marine mammal biologists, that the lack of incentive for pursuing this line of research is resulting in few people actually having the...
  20. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    I know I have replied to this argument of yours multiple of times in various threads, but I will keep replying: The idea that scientists only are interested in splitting species to get more papers is silly. Unless your species is some sort of big charismatic species like an elephant or giraffe...
  21. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    Some people have argued that this is how we should think of subspecies, but subspecies seem to be even more inconsistently defined than species.
  22. Mysticete

    What is a species?

    As others have stated, there is no agreed upon definition of a species, and even when a group of scientists do agree upon the definition, they may still disagree on whether two or more populations have acrued enough described differences to warrant separation. Since speciation is ongoing at any...
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