Low Light Binoculars (1 Viewer)

[Chosun Juan]

Granted Zeiss Victory is the leader in its class when it comes to Low Light viewing, but they themselves claim 95% light tranmission and Steiner claim ~90% light transmission for theirs,

So although money isn't a problem, that doesn't mean I wish to pay a mountain of gold for 5% extra transmission!

Though I would like the Binoculars to work well in Low light, it isn't the ultimate consideration, ultimately it is more for the outdoors, hunting and general purpose...

It seems that the Steiners are similar to each other, just a change in name, marine binoculars and their hunting ones and outdoors ones are the same, just the naming is different.

I considered the Doctor Nobilem, but as has been pointed out, it is over the top in terms of size and weight.

As side from the optics, it seems that the Steiners are more solid and rugged for heavy use outdoors?

So I think I might consider a pair of hunting binoculars, though not hunting specific like the steiner cobra or predator, but more general like the Steiner Ranger Pro 8x56..
I suppose I am looking for a pair of binoculars that can do a bit of everything.

Look forward to your advice.

Thanks...

Quipo,

You've received some good advice so far, but it seems to me to read like you are getting a bit lost in a minefield of options. As of this time we don't have shape changing binoculars |8.| (yet, hey pomp?! ) - so all current offerings will have some level of compromises built in, and the first step is working out what you really want.

It will help you sort through to ask yourself a series of questions .....
1. Usage - will it be general all-around conditions? (~5mmEP - 8x42-44 would suit, maybe even 10x50), mainly dawn /dusk? (~5.6mm - 7x42, or 8x44, or 8x50, or 10x56), or night-time? (by moonlight, etc ~7mm - 8x56). The answers to this will determine what objective size /exit pupil combo you want.
2. Age - what is your maximum dark adapted pupil size? Can you use a full 7mm EP? (8x56), or only 6mm? (7x42, or 8x50), or only 5.6mm? (8x44, or 10x56), or only 5mm? (8x42, or 10x50). Will you even be out in the dark long enough for it to be a consideration?
3. What magnification do you really want? Higher mags (and objective sizes) will give higher Twilight Factors (TWF =sqrt[mag x obj]), but will also trade FOV to give a more restricted true field (7x ~140-150m, 8x ~112-136m, 10x ~100-120m) - is that important to you? This choice needs to be married up to the EP you can use to give the objective size class you'll look at. You should note too, what sort of low light view do you prefer - maximal brightness? (8x56) or maximal detail? (8x50, 8x56, or 10x56)
4. Weight /size - how much are you really prepared to carry? x42-44 class bins will be up to ~850g and can be worn by most around the neck with a good padded strap, whereas x56 class bins are a different animal again at 1100g+ probably requiring a sling, or harness for extended use, for all but the most hairy-chested!
5. What quality ($$) of view are you really after? The best of the best? (Zeiss victory HT, or Swarovski SLC-HD in 8x42, or an 'alpha' 7x42), or something half that price? (Steiner's 8x44, 10x50, 10x56, or 8x56, similar brands etc). Only you can decide what's important to you - Those very few last percent of sharpness, light transmission, contrast, detail, and glare performance? Or, something 90-95% as good (for half the price) with larger objectives? (x44, x50, or x56 which will equalise the brightness /light gathering of the top alpha's if not perhaps the ultimate detail seen, unless under darkness). To put things in perspective, in terms of the amount of light each format offers - 95%tr@42mm = 87%tr@44mm = 67%tr@50mm = 53%tr@56mm, or put another way (relative to the amount of light of a 42mm), 90%tr@44mm = 98%tr@42mm, and 90%tr@50mm = 127%tr@42mm, and 90%tr@56mm = 160%tr@42mm. So bigger objectives well and truly trump even the brightest 42mm's. They also add much more weight, and less FOV. The choice is yours. The 8x56's will certainly tick your brightness box, but only you can decide if they are versatile enough that they "can do a bit of everything" ......

There's more to it, but that'll be more than a good start. The format you go with will be a fundamental factor to ticking most of whatever boxes you decide you need.


Chosun :gh:

 

[mannukiddo]

Very good advise given here. But IMHO all the expensive 42 mm options have very good coating that make them bright but the objective is still at 42mm which I believe is inadequate for a true low light bin. At most they will be better by say 10-15 minutes than a lesser bin of the same size. For a true low light bin, I would look at 50 objective size as the bare minimum. The 7 or 8 X 56 options will be the upper limit for a true portable bin with real good low light abilities.

 

[Troubador]

Chosun Juan's advice is dead right and should be considered carefully.

Just to add a minor correction to her assertion that Zeiss HT comes only as an 8x42, it also comes as a 10x42, but, as you can see, is only available as a 42.

It is terrific in low light and has excellent close focusing which may be important for general nature observation.

You seem to be really, really attracted to Steiner bins. Any particular reason?

Lee

 

[hinnark]

Granted Zeiss Victory is the leader in its class when it comes to Low Light viewing, but they themselves claim 95% light tranmission and Steiner claim ~90% light transmission for theirs,

So although money isn't a problem, that doesn't mean I wish to pay a mountain of gold for 5% extra transmission!

Though I would like the Binoculars to work well in Low light, it isn't the ultimate consideration, ultimately it is more for the outdoors, hunting and general purpose...

It seems that the Steiners are similar to each other, just a change in name, marine binoculars and their hunting ones and outdoors ones are the same, just the naming is different.

I considered the Doctor Nobilem, but as has been pointed out, it is over the top in terms of size and weight.

As side from the optics, it seems that the Steiners are more solid and rugged for heavy use outdoors?

So I think I might consider a pair of hunting binoculars, though not hunting specific like the steiner cobra or predator, but more general like the Steiner Ranger Pro 8x56..
I suppose I am looking for a pair of binoculars that can do a bit of everything.

Look forward to your advice.

Thanks...

Considering overall optical performance the Victory is probably the leader in its class. Resolution, FOV and CA-performance is unrivaled here. But regarding transmission of light it's more about 93% while the Nighhunter Extreme is about 95%. Docter Nobilem (excellent resolution too) is probably around 89%.

Steve

 

[kestrel1]

Considering overall optical performance the Victory is probably the leader in its class. Resolution, FOV and CA-performance is unrivaled here. But regarding transmission of light it's more about 93% while the Nighhunter Extreme is about 95%. Docter Nobilem (excellent resolution too) is probably around 89%.

Steve

Nobilem is according to allbinos with 98% transmission(IMHO is Nobilem brighter than SW EL SV in daylight conditions), and last twilight test of 8x56 by binomania found it slightly brighter than Victory FL. Nobilem is also good because using over-dimensioned prisms, which make bright vision even on the edge, but weight caused by this design solution is significant(1,5kg)
Steiner is very good low light binocular, but designers reduce weight of instrument (1kg) by using smaller prisms which caused slight vignetting and darkening on edges.
Good weight and transmission is maybe in Zeiss Dialyt 8x56, which seems as compromise, but is quite lenght.
Good solution for low light and age of 40+ is 7x42 (SW Habicht,SLC Zeiss FL, Nikon EDG...)
or 10x50 for twilight observation on longer distance (Leica UV, SW EL SV, Fujinon FMTR,Zeiss HT10x42)

Best regards Kestrel

 

[hinnark]

Nobilem is according to allbinos with 98% transmission(IMHO is Nobilem brighter than SW EL SV in daylight conditions), and last twilight test of 8x56 by binomania found it slightly brighter than Victory FL. Nobilem is also good because using over-dimensioned prisms, which make bright vision even on the edge, but weight caused by this design solution is significant(1,5kg)

The Allbinos transmission test of the Docter 8x56 Nobilem is certainly an error. I also unlike Allbinos don't think that there could be such a difference between their 7x50 und 8x56 model, given the fact that these bins share the same eyepieces and prisms and receive the same coating technology. The big prisms of the Nobilem and the long pathway of the light through the glasses that comes as consequence are one of the reasons why 98% can only be a fairy tale value. On the other hand I don't think that the prisms are over-dimensioned here. If this would really be the case, Docter could provide a noticable wider FOV. However, I have no doubts that the 8x56 Nobilem belongs to the top performing binoculars in twilight.

Regarding the vignetting effects of realtive small prisms and which effect this could have for twilight view I think this is still an open patch at the map of optics.

Steve

 

[Chosun Juan]

.... Just to add a minor correction to her assertion that Zeiss HT comes only as an 8x42, it also comes as a 10x42, but, as you can see, is only available as a 42.

It is terrific in low light and has excellent close focusing which may be important for general nature observation ....

Jeez! you highfalutin HT owners are sooooo particular! :-O

I didn't mention the 10x42's since real low light bins start from ~5mm EP, despite what the Zeiss marketing madmen would have you believe (unless of course you regard octogenarians as young whippersnappers - then they're great!) 3

Btw - just what exactly is there to "hunt" at midnight in Ol' Blighty anysways ?? ...... American Werewolves in London ?! |8.|



Chosun :gh:

 

[Troubador]

Jeez! you highfalutin HT owners are sooooo particular! :-O

Btw - just what exactly is there to "hunt" at midnight in Ol' Blighty anysways ?? ...... American Werewolves in London ?! |8.|
Chosun :gh:

Well CJ we are partikular because some folks are just x10 folks, and if any other folks read what we have asserted, without understanding the context (which you were correct to point out) we don't want them thinking HTs only come in one flavour. Zeiss might miss a sale and we don't want that do we.

As for what there is to hunt at midnight 'ave ee never 'eard o' the Black Beast o' Bodmin Moor? No? Me neither :-O

So who knows what these Midnight Cowboys end up chasing??

TroubaLee

 

[Chosun Juan]

The Allbinos transmission test of the Docter 8x56 Nobilem is certainly an error. I also unlike Allbinos don't think that there could be such a difference between their 7x50 und 8x56 model, given the fact that these bins share the same eyepieces and prisms and receive the same coating technology. The big prisms of the Nobilem and the long pathway of the light through the glasses that comes as consequence are one of the reasons why 98% can only be a fairy tale value. On the other hand I don't think that the prisms are over-dimensioned here. If this would really be the case, Docter could provide a noticable wider FOV. However, I have no doubts that the 8x56 Nobilem belongs to the top performing binoculars in twilight.

Regarding the vignetting effects of realtive small prisms and which effect this could have for twilight view I think this is still an open patch at the map of optics.

Steve

It would seem very difficult, although Allbino's has the Docter-Nobilem 10x50 B/GA listed at the same unbelieveable 98.5% level as well!

They list the Steiner Night Hunter Xtreme 8x56 as 93.2%.

The visible 'gray area' due to vignetting is listed as 3.44% on the left side of their test unit (not sure if this in addition to the 1.85% truncation figure, or includes it). This will drop the brightness down by this percentage.

Also due to the 8x56 Night Hunters small FOV, it will only begin to outshine the much lighter 8x44 XP Night Hunter (roof prism), once the eye's pupil has dilated to ~6mm (Where a 10x56 will be just as bright at this point and have a 20% higher Twilight Factor at this juncture too). So the 8x56 really is a specialised after dark instrument, or as Henry likes to say - the best daytime '8x42' going!


Chosun :gh:

 

[Chosun Juan]

Well CJ we are partikular because some folks are just x10 folks ....

As for what there is to hunt at midnight 'ave ee never 'eard o' the Black Beast o' Bodmin Moor? No? Me neither :-O

So who knows what these Midnight Cowboys end up chasing??

TroubaLee

Holy smokes Lee! :eek!: :smoke:

I've seen footage of some sizeable Black :cat: :cat: that are meant to be panthera spp, but I came across a report of a 1.67m black 'feral' :cat: (according to DNA tests). I made a post about it in "Ruffled Feathers" { http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2665439&postcount=7} which so far hasn't generated much comment ..... seems that 5&1/2 ft long feral moggies evolving in just 225 years and roaming the countryside is all a bit ho-hum and everday for some! |8.|


Chosun :gh:

 

[kestrel1]

The Allbinos transmission test of the Docter 8x56 Nobilem is certainly an error. I also unlike Allbinos don't think that there could be such a difference between their 7x50 und 8x56 model, given the fact that these bins share the same eyepieces and prisms and receive the same coating technology. The big prisms of the Nobilem and the long pathway of the light through the glasses that comes as consequence are one of the reasons why 98% can only be a fairy tale value. On the other hand I don't think that the prisms are over-dimensioned here. If this would really be the case, Docter could provide a noticable wider FOV. However, I have no doubts that the 8x56 Nobilem belongs to the top performing binoculars in twilight.

Regarding the vignetting effects of realtive small prisms and which effect this could have for twilight view I think this is still an open patch at the map of optics.

Steve

Nobilem (Navidoc) in 7x50 has additional coating because of using in marine aplications, which blocking blue and violet spectrum and UV. Docter has one of best coatings on the market, in their Japan manufactured 8x58 roof
(abbe-koenig) transmission also reaches near 95%.
http://www.allbinos.com/172-binoculars_review-Docter_8x58_B_CF.html
8x56 Nobilem is designed for twilight aplication and has fewer optical elements than roof 8x58, thus probably has better transmission.

What is better on Steiners is mechanical durability, and optimised coatings for cleaning (nano protection), but in transmission is Nobilem one of best due to simple construction and very good coatings, maybe not 98% but really far more than 89%, which is level provided by schmidt-perchan chineese manufactured roofs like Vixens, Delta ROH... or roofs with AK like Optolyth. Porro Delta Titanium or even Olympus EXPS provide 90%.
Nobilem must be really between 93-98%.

Best regards Kestrel

 

[Binastro]

I don't know what they are hunting but it is amazing what you see in summertime when you don't have a gun.

 

[kestrel1]

Steiner also introduce some succesor of Ranger Pro
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...87220156.47579.161279437221791&type=1&theater

But there is not much information about it,
maybe this should be compacter 8x56, with better transportation properties,
than porro device. I cannot find this model on websites, even on steiner website. Before some time Frankonia.de had them with price arround 750€, but they disappeared.
Ranger Pro has good FOV 122m/1000m which is better than in Nobilem or Nighthunter, but I think that using roof prism will cause not as good transmission.
Has anyone more information about this bino?

Best regards Kestrel

 

[hinnark]

Nobilem (Navidoc) in 7x50 has additional coating because of using in marine aplications, which blocking blue and violet spectrum and UV. Docter has one of best coatings on the market, in their Japan manufactured 8x58 roof
(abbe-koenig) transmission also reaches near 95%.
http://www.allbinos.com/172-binoculars_review-Docter_8x58_B_CF.html
8x56 Nobilem is designed for twilight aplication and has fewer optical elements than roof 8x58, thus probably has better transmission.

What is better on Steiners is mechanical durability, and optimised coatings for cleaning (nano protection), but in transmission is Nobilem one of best due to simple construction and very good coatings, maybe not 98% but really far more than 89%, which is level provided by schmidt-perchan chineese manufactured roofs like Vixens, Delta ROH... or roofs with AK like Optolyth. Porro Delta Titanium or even Olympus EXPS provide 90%.
Nobilem must be really between 93-98%.

Best regards Kestrel

Kestrel,

as far as I can see Allbinos didn't test the Navidoc but the 7x50 Nobilem. These two are different binoculars. Also the Steiner's construction is just as simple than the Nobilem's (cemented doublet objective, AFAIK).

I'm afraid Allbinos transmission tests couldn't be always considered as a reliable source because some of their results are much too high as are their noted tolerances (e.g. Docter Nobilem 8x56 98 %, Nikon 10x42 SE 96%). A tolerance of 3% (how does this value come from and how is it calculated?) is certainly not state of the art. I wonder which kind of device and procedure they use.

Steve

 

[janvangastel]

An exit pupil of 7 mm or more does only make sense if ones eye pupils dilate to 7 mm or more in the dark. Because it is - when observing birds - not really dark, this will most of the time and for most observers not be the case. More can be seen then with a 10x50 system (if possible to hold steady enough), compared to a 7x50, because of that.

 

[kestrel1]

Kestrel,

as far as I can see Allbinos didn't test the Navidoc but the 7x50 Nobilem. These two are different binoculars. Also the Steiner's construction is just as simple than the Nobilem's (cemented doublet objective, AFAIK).

I'm afraid Allbinos transmission tests couldn't be always considered as a reliable source because some of their results are much too high as are their noted tolerances (e.g. Docter Nobilem 8x56 98 %, Nikon 10x42 SE 96%). A tolerance of 3% (how does this value come from and how is it calculated?) is certainly not state of the art. I wonder which kind of device and procedure they use.

Steve

Yes this is true, allbinos is only portal which test Nobilem transmission and there is some error because graph seems as 100% for green yellow, but whiteness of Nobilem 8x56 image is good, 7x50 has yellowish tint by information of allbinos, so coating of tested pieces of Nobilems must be different. I can only say that brightness observed in Nobilem 8x56 is bigger than in 90% transmitting SW EL SV 8,5x42. I was able to compare these on noon, and green color in nobilem shines more, when I looked on trees and grass, Nobilem is slightly green yellowish than EL SV, so transmission characteristic has there peak,like allbinos tested, but not so high.

Anyway, is in Germany any technical info about new Ranger Extreme?

Best regards Kestrel

 

[Chosun Juan]

..... I'm afraid Allbinos transmission tests couldn't be always considered as a reliable source because some of their results are much too high as are their noted tolerances (e.g. Docter Nobilem 8x56 98 %, Nikon 10x42 SE 96%). A tolerance of 3% (how does this value come from and how is it calculated?) is certainly not state of the art. I wonder which kind of device and procedure they use.

Steve

Steve, I'm just guessing here, based on observation, but it seems pretty consistent from the actual graphs furnished that the value quoted in the test (which gets the score) is the recorded value for 550nm - the daytime transmission figure. The +/- following that is then to reflect the ultimate peak (wherever that occurs in the graph), but must also logically include some error margin as well.

It seems that Allbinos measurement equipment does give consistently higher readings in general, when compared to that used by say Gijs Van Ginkel for example. This may be purely an equipment difference like you would see between individual units and makes of engine dynamometers. The readings though seem reasonably consistent internally, and externally, with what you'd expect based on optical design and construction, and other published and manufacturer data. With of course the odd notable exception as we have mentioned.

Perhaps if Arek sees this he can chime in and clarify.


Chosun :gh:

 

[hinnark]

It seems that Allbinos measurement equipment does give consistently higher readings in general, when compared to that used by say Gijs Van Ginkel for example. This may be purely an equipment difference like you would see between individual units and makes of engine dynamometers. The readings though seem reasonably consistent internally, and externally, with what you'd expect based on optical design and construction, and other published and manufacturer data. With of course the odd notable exception as we have mentioned.

Perhaps if Arek sees this he can chime in and clarify.

The different results at Allbinos of the 8x32 Nikon SE and 10x42 Nikon SE (same prisms, same eyepieces like the Nobilems) is a puzzle even greater than that of the Nobilems. The colors of the 7x50 and 8x56 Nobilems currently in production are not that different. There is an ISO-standard for those measurements. The idea behinds those international standards is to produce results that are comparable with each other. While the measurements of Gijs Van Ginkel seem to be in accordance with measurements that were done according to ISO-standards this is obviously not the case with those of Allbinos. I think a website that claims to provide "The best binocular tests on the net" should do their testing (including that durability test) according to well known standards. If they've done this, we don't need discussions like this.
That said, I think also that some of their testing contains good ideas. An example is the assessment of internal reflections by taking a photo of the exit pupils. I think those results are quite valid in many cases.

#Kestrel: Sorry, I don't have any informations about the new RangerXtreme bins. There seems to be no mentioning at Steiner's website about it.

Steve

 

[Chosun Juan]

The different results at Allbinos of the 8x32 Nikon SE and 10x42 Nikon SE (same prisms, same eyepieces like the Nobilems) is a puzzle even greater than that of the Nobilems ..... That said, I think also that some of their testing contains good ideas. An example is the assessment of internal reflections by taking a photo of the exit pupils. I think those results are quite valid in many cases.

Steve

Steve, yes the SE's are another puzzling one, hence why I only said "seem reasonably consistent". I think there are some questions over the level of accuracy, and there certainly are some clangers in there, however most seem in the ball park. It would've helped if they had shown the 10x42 SE's actual transmission graph. The one for the 8x32 SE shows the value @550Nm to be ~89.1% as they have recorded. They seem to test many different ages of individual bins (Zen ED2 comes to mind, even though superceded by the ED3 which has been around for years), and maybe some of the differences in the 8x and 10x SE's is down to vastly different coatings on each unit, from widely spaced production years - although ~7% does seem excessive (and implausable).

It's also interesting to look at the photos of the exit pupils in both the 8x and 10x SE. The 8x scores 2.9/5.0=58% and internal reflections are described as "A bit of flares in the area nearest to prisms". Whereas the 10x scores 4.1/5.0=82% and internal reflections are described as "Slight". Well I'm sorry, but looking at the photos I'm stuffed if I can see that the 10x is ~40% better than the 8x.

I think what both of these things say is that Allbino's is a little bit airy-fairy sometimes, and you need to filter some of their stuff through common sense. Kudos to them though for having a go.


Chosun :gh:

 

[ceasar]

Kestrel,

as far as I can see Allbinos didn't test the Navidoc but the 7x50 Nobilem. These two are different binoculars. Also the Steiner's construction is just as simple than the Nobilem's (cemented doublet objective, AFAIK).

I'm afraid Allbinos transmission tests couldn't be always considered as a reliable source because some of their results are much too high as are their noted tolerances (e.g. Docter Nobilem 8x56 98 %, Nikon 10x42 SE 96%). A tolerance of 3% (how does this value come from and how is it calculated?) is certainly not state of the art. I wonder which kind of device and procedure they use.

Steve

The transmission figure of 96% is given in the Results of the Review of the Nikon 10 x 42 SE in Allbinos Rankings of 10 x 42 binoculars but the graph of that transmission is not shown as it is with the others ranked.

http://www.allbinos.com/152-binoculars_review-Nikon_SE_10x42_CF.html