Scottish Crossbill - dubious split? any DNA proof? (1 Viewer)

[Jos Stratford]

Unfortunately in my job you always have to find something new.

I reckon a Gallic-speaking crossbill, clearly confusing many by its strange accent, yet seeking independance from other crossbills resident in the United Kingdom, would make a great read for many a Scottish readership ...like on like, might induce a bit of sympathy for the cause

 

[griffin]

Lyndsay

Lindsay not Lyndsay

Not having a dig about not using name, but you can perhaps appreciate it can cause grounds for suspicion.

Scotbill issue not new and has aready had some (albeit dodgy) media coverage. Speak to the Ronster and he will bring you up to speed with all the stuff. He has done a heck of a lot in the last 10 years or so and knows more than anyone at this moment.

Tim, still don't get it, duh ! :egghead:

Linz

 

[griffin]

I reckon a Gallic-speaking crossbill, clearly confusing many by its strange accent, yet seeking independance from other crossbills resident in the United Kingdom, would make a great read for many a Scottish readership ...like on like, might induce a bit of sympathy for the cause

That, my friend is a lot to do with it !

I am looking over my shoulder continually now after slagging off the Scottish Parliament ( sorry, "Executive" eg. The (old ) Scottish Office in a buliding that cost nearly £500 million and looks like my 4 year old nephew designed ! ).

Linz

 

[crossbill]

find me one Jos please ... what a fab story that would be!

Sorry for spelling your name wrongly LC

 

[Docmartin]

find me one Jos please ... what a fab story that would be!

Sorry for spelling your name wrongly LC

If you want a *really* interesting story, you should cover Scotland's endemic subspecies, many of which Herald readers might identify more with - hebridean song thrush, the various wrens, 'our' ptarmigan etc.

 

[crossbill]

I didn't know there were endemic subspecies Docmartin - sorry to be ignorant! How do they differ from these species elsewhere in the world? Are the differences between them similar to the differences between the Scottish Crossbill and Common or Parrot?
Also, just to show up my ignorance yet again, what does BB stand for? Is it a magazine or scientific journal?

 

[Jos Stratford]

'BB' is 'British Birds', probably the best bird journal out there.

'Not BB' was a spoof of it, I believe, is it still going?


Actually, I would agree with Docmartin, the endemic races would be really interesting. As to how distinctive they are, probably more so than the crossbills

 

[Docmartin]

I didn't know there were endemic subspecies Docmartin - sorry to be ignorant! How do they differ from these species elsewhere in the world? Are the differences between them similar to the differences between the Scottish Crossbill and Common or Parrot?
Also, just to show up my ignorance yet again, what does BB stand for? Is it a magazine or scientific journal?

Yes, BB is British Birds, quite possibly the best bird magazine, certainly the oldest (1907). I'm on the editorial board. The October 2005 issue had the paper referring to Scottish Crossbills. You also need to see the March 2003 BB for
Summers and Piertney 2003. The Scottish Crossbill - what we know and what we don't. Brit. Birds 96 100-111.

http://www.britishbirds.co.uk

Scottish subspecies - there are 9 currently recognised endemic subspecies in Scotland. Perhaps the most interesting are the wrens - Fair Isle Wren. Shetland Wren, Hebridean Wren and St Kilda Wren. These are all rather distinctly different from 'mainland' Wrens found elsewhere in Scotland and the UK, and may have more right to species status than Scottish Crossbill. :eek!:
Then there is the Scottish Ptarmigan - again recognisably different from other European subspecies. The Scottish Crested Tit and Hebridean Song Thrush are distinct endemic subspecies too; you'd struggle to see the differences between them and other subspecies in the field (though still easier than identifying a Scottish Crossbill!). There is also the Shetland Starling, endemic but frankly requires a leap of imagination to see the differences in the field.
I'll offer a small prize of a lollipop to anyone who can name the ninth subspecies, and two lollipops to anyone who cares.

The definitive paper on endemic Scottish subspecies was published in the June 2003 issue of Scottish Birds, the scientific journal of the Scottish Ornithologists' Club (SOC). http://www.the-soc.zenwebhosting.com/
McGowan et al 2003. Scotland's endemic subspecies. Scot Birds 24, 18-35.

 

[redeyedvideo]

I'll offer a small prize of a lollipop to anyone who can name the ninth subspecies, and two lollipops to anyone who cares.

It should be Chaffinch based on song but how about Red Grouse? Do I get one for trying?


Dave J

 

[Birdspotter]

Scottish subspecies - there are 9 currently recognised endemic subspecies in Scotland. Perhaps the most interesting are the wrens - Fair Isle Wren. Shetland Wren, Hebridean Wren and St Kilda Wren. These are all rather distinctly different from 'mainland' Wrens found elsewhere in Scotland and the UK, and may have more right to species status than Scottish Crossbill. :eek!:
Then there is the Scottish Ptarmigan - again recognisably different from other European subspecies. The Scottish Crested Tit and Hebridean Song Thrush are distinct endemic subspecies too; you'd struggle to see the differences between them and other subspecies in the field (though still easier than identifying a Scottish Crossbill!). There is also the Shetland Starling, endemic but frankly requires a leap of imagination to see the differences in the field.
I'll offer a small prize of a lollipop to anyone who can name the ninth subspecies, and two lollipops to anyone who cares.

Hi Martin,
Linnet is the ninth subspecies and as I also care thats two lollipops you owe me.
I like raspberry flavoured.

 

[Docmartin]

Linnet is the ninth subspecies and as I also care thats two lollipops you owe me.
I like raspberry flavoured.

Sorry I only have 'lime and red pepper' and 'vegetable korma'. Will they do?

 

[Birdspotter]

Sorry I only have 'lime and red pepper' and 'vegetable korma'. Will they do?

Mmmmm that will do nicely.

 

[hil5]

there's a newspaper article about birdforum and this subject

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/50171.html

 

[crossbill]

Yep, that's me hil5. I took some quotes from the previous thread in 2003 and then had a chat to the RSPB. They've promised to give me a look at the new research once it is ready for publication, so will let you all know what the findings are.
Thanks again for the help.

 

[hil5]

Yep, that's me hil5. I took some quotes from the previous thread in 2003 and then had a chat to the RSPB. They've promised to give me a look at the new research once it is ready for publication, so will let you all know what the findings are.
Thanks again for the help.

Great! You should be blowing your own trumpet with that article, a journalist with integrity.

It's also good publicity for birdforum.

 

[Docmartin]

Yep, that's me hil5. I took some quotes from the previous thread in 2003 and then had a chat to the RSPB. They've promised to give me a look at the new research once it is ready for publication, so will let you all know what the findings are.
Thanks again for the help.

Blimey, who told you it was declared a separate species only 4 years ago? It was described for the first time as a race of Common Crossbill in 1904, then variously included as a subspecies of Common or Parrot Crossbill for about 70 years. the first proposal that it shuld be a full species that I can find was in 1963 (Salomonsen), but it was pioneering work by, in particular, Alan Knox, published in 1975 and 1976 that lead to it being accepted as a species in the Voous list of Holarctic birds in 1977. So 28 years. I thought that extensive quote you included was just plain insulting to the people working on Crossbill taxonomy and it would have taken about 2 picoseconds to find a quote from someone who wasn't talking out of his or her erse. Otherwise it was fine
:t:

 

[mountain man]

Great! You should be blowing your own trumpet with that article, a journalist with integrity.

I tend to disagree. Whilst Birdforum undoubtedly has some people in positions of authority (for example the Doc - who you don't even quote) I hardly think that quoting from an unvetted, non-peer reviewed, public internet forum is a particularly clever thing to do when talking about something as complex as Crossbill taxonomy. And how come Lindsay wasn't mentioned - whether in a positive or negative light?

 

[Edward woodwood]

oh dear

ha ha ha

thank f*** he left my name out

 

[mountain man]

And another thing, do you reckon that one day you journalists could possibly think of a heading about birding that doesn't begin with "Feathers Flying"?

 

[redeyedvideo]

I took some quotes from the previous thread in 2003 and then had a chat to the RSPB.

When you say you had a chat with the RSPB, was it some bloke in a hide somewhere with an RSPB badge, a voluntary warden at Titchwell or someone who knows about Crossbills?

I've yet to read anything factual in the press about wild birds & your article seems to be accusing conservation bodies of lying to obtain grants.

You should be proud of yourself. a hundred years of hard work undone by some hack trying to make a name for his or herself.


Dave J