Scottish Crossbill - dubious split? any DNA proof? (3 Viewers)

[jpoyner]

I know of several reliable sightings in Speyside of mixed pairs. One last year appeared to be a Parrot with a much smaller billed mate.
So what on earth are these offspring......and what do they end up pairing with?
I've given up speculating as in the field it's just basically guess work as to what you are seeing.

The question in my mind is just how much more money and time should be spent on this one? Research has been ongoing for decades and so far there hasn't been a definite conclusion. I would be very interested indeed to see a figure put on the total cost of the whole issue? A quarter of a million, half a million £.....possibly more.....research doesn't come cheap.


Perhaps it's time to just knock it on the head and channel the funds to more pressing research instead........a valid point surely considering most of this is from the public purse?

JP

 

[Tim Hall]

Claimed Scottish Crossbills in Abernethy about 1996-1998. Remember good views of a few birds with larger bills than I was used to seeing, and I remember some of them having a deeper call. Wasn't aware of the presence of Parrots there until much later.
On balance, I think that they were probably Parrots, but appreciate now that it is almost impossible to be sure .... looks like my list might have to contract....

 

[griffin]

The question in my mind is just how much more money and time should be spent on this one? Research has been ongoing for decades and so far there hasn't been a definite conclusion. I would be very interested indeed to see a figure put on the total cost of the whole issue? A quarter of a million, half a million £.....possibly more.....research doesn't come cheap.

Perhaps it's time to just knock it on the head and channel the funds to more pressing research instead........a valid point surely considering most of this is from the public purse?

JP

Costs a lot less than a useless "Scottish" parliament - £480 Million, which thus far has peaked in function as a "talking shop". Cost a lot less than invading and "managing" a certain oil rich country, or legislating for the ban on the right of people to hunt animals with hounds - THESE ARE A WASTE OF MONEY. IMHO ANY MONEY SPENT ON ENVIRONMENTAL RESEARCH OF ANY KIND IS WELCOME IN LIGHT OF THE AFOREMENTIONED.

Oh, and FYI JP some of us actually fund our own research from our own finances........ :storm:

L

 

[Jos Stratford]

Costs a lot less than a useless "Scottish" parliament - £480 Million, which thus far has peaked in function as a "talking shop". Cost a lot less than invading and "managing" a certain oil rich country, or legislating for the ban on the right of people to hunt animals with hounds - THESE ARE A WASTE OF MONEY. IMHO ANY MONEY SPENT ON ENVIRONMENTAL RESEARCH OF ANY KIND IS WELCOME IN LIGHT OF THE AFOREMENTIONED.

I would say this post stands a very good chance of leading this thread off at a tangent, i.e. off topic


Don't begrudge money spent on Crossbill research, but if we are evaluating which are deservant of money spent, I personally believe money spent on the last of your mentioned 'wastes' of money was quite well-spent.

 

[griffin]

I would say this post stands a very good chance of leading this thread off at a tangent, i.e. off topic


Don't begrudge money spent on Crossbill research, but if we are evaluating which are deservant of money spent, I personally believe money spent on the last of your mentioned 'wastes' of money was quite well-spent.

Was putting it in perspective so don't think it is off topic as you put it.

Hunting bill doesn't effect me and have no opinion of it either way. However, if Govt Lawyers made the bill watertight would have saved a lot of Taxpayers money, so I still see it as a waste ?

 

[griffin]

Think Tim has hit it on the head (bill even) here. The assortative mating assumption has been a major flaw in the whole of the research. I think mixed pairing is a regular occurance and has been largely ignored........as it's implications throw such a spanner in the works!!
So if we make the assumption that "Scottish" is a species, and that Parrot/Common hyrids exist too.......how would a researcher tell them apart....before commencing a study?
Is anyone denying 100% that Parrot/Common hybrids do exist....thats the million dollar question????

JP

Ehhh ? JP we have been through this before - there is no revelation in your assertions that there are hybrids. Sorry - have lost this post twice trying to submit so am getting a bit impatient ! There is no flaw in the assortative mating research – it acknowledges mixed pairs.

Of course hybrids do exist and as I have said before, and Doc Martin on this thread, they occur in circumstances and at levels that will have little or no divergence on the continuing and sustaining gene pool. Assortative mating HAS been studied and has NOT been largely ignored, and is continuing to be researched - this is not theory it is fact – though I agree more should be done ( though you don’t want to fund it ! ). I am about to do “Assortative” stuff on nest sites next Spring to see if calls change, and colour ring and mark large-billed birds so I can track individuals and monitor their call structure over time ( years ) at several sites and see if there is a seasonal effect ( don’t think there is, except that they are vocally more “excited” in Feb-Apr , but it has to be done ). You will be relieved to know that this will be funded by myself and not the Brit taxpayer, simply because I am interested and fancy the challenge.

The birds I study form tend to form associations with birds giving same calls, same bills, and progeny that inherit these. In Winter sure you get mixed flocks but they soon fragment into their respective “types”. I have recorded what appears to be Parrot and Scotbill mixed pairs twice in Deeside now ( at breeding time ). It must be stressed that this is based on the current call assignation – this will probably be reviewed in the future. I watched groups of Parrots today and they already seem to be in loosely defined pairs, some males with two females – all giving same call types as each other, looked the same. I have several calls that are not currently categorised. I also photographed a stonker of an adult Parrot male with white wing bar on greater coverts and white fringes on tertials. Strange SH1t does happen.

The most likey candidate for "hybrid" in MHO is a bird that gives EcC ( scottish ), but that is easily refuted and will probably be laughed at by some - I reserve the right to U turn ! Knox and Nethersole Thompson did not record ANY of these ( as far as I know ) in the 70's, it was Parrots giving EcD instead. These, I now believe, are most likely the dormant, or remnant to use das Generals assertion, Scottish Crossbill, and have been confused as it for years - at least 50. This would appear to be in line with the taxonomy and call structures of “Pine” Crossbills in the Med region, though this research is even more in its infancy than for Scotbill.

These Parrot, along with the intermediates birds (currently Scotbill ) ARE long term resident, possibly endemic - Marquiss and Rae showed they stayed in location for many years, they do not irrupt or go back to Scandie land. They successfully breed and stay put. That is fact, governed by extensive field work over many years by these guys. Numbers fluctuate governed by cone crop – this year is good hence max flock of Parrots so far 28, yes 28 and I hope to top this. Got the photos and calls to validate.

Ch.rist gotta go lie down, lugging mics, camera bins around the hills all day.Knackered.

Will be off line for a while – switched to Broadband with Wanadoo, should be called Canadoo – no signal no nothing, crap customer service. I am on someone elses computer and they are getting Piss.ed with me hogging it so best keep the peace !

Best wishes,

Linz

 

[griffin]

Hi,
Just wanted to say thanks for opening the whole debate up again - even if it had been done to death in previous threads! It helps me a lot.
Lindsay, I will have a chat to Ron and look at the other threads you mentioned (need to set aside a bit of time by the sounds of it!)
...can I just check that I've got the basic argument right: No DNA differences between Scottish, Parrot, Common Crossbills. Scottish Crossbill identified by its differing calls and bill length. For many people these differences are so slight that it becomes extremely difficult to distinguish them from other Crossbills. Some believe the Scottish Crossbill may in fact just be a hybrid (I presume this would be a cross between Parrot and Common?). However, others (Lindsay in this case!) say Crossbills with the bill length and calls we are talking about are only found in Scotland - if it was a hybrid then surely it would also be found on the continent.
I'm not asking you to repeat everything you've said here, just correct me if any of the above is wrong!

Do chat with Ron - can PM his contact details if you wish, but first you better let me know what "rag" you scribe for so I can check its ok by him ! I am meeting him in Abernethy soon so you should try to get out and see these things yourself too........

If EcC is a hybrid, and I say if tentatively, the envionmental conditions that are prevalent in Scotland could have some bearing. There is possibly more niche separation on the continentent between Parrot and Common than exists in Scotland. In Scotland there is a "mosiaic" of conifer types to quote Marquiss and Rae. This could be the factor.

Linz

 

[jpoyner]

Sorry if I hit a nerve re. the funding question Lindsay but I did think that from a "laymans" point of view it was a valid input to the debate to question the money being spent on research of a single species' taxonomy.

Think that I'll withdraw from this debate and thread here!

All The Best.

JP

 

[griffin]

Sorry if I hit a nerve re. the funding question Lindsay but I did think that from a "laymans" point of view it was a valid input to the debate to question the money being spent on research of a single species' taxonomy.

Think that I'll withdraw from this debate and thread here!

All The Best.

JP

Hi JP,

No need to withdraw - as someone who observes Loxia regularly in Speyside you have a right to your views, "laymans" or otherwise, although as I have said to somone on this Forum in the past, it is essential to know the whole story, or certainly the story thus far to really push a point. It is a scientfic debate whether we like it or not - personally I am old school, obersevational and behavioural biologist, but appreciate that we need data points.

As a taxpayer you are also entitled to your views regarding government funded research and policy, as am I and candidly demonstrated. I guess RSPB get a lot of European funding due to it being an Red List endemic, but am sure they would say they fund much of it themselves from their own revenue raised through membership, merchandise etc. They are geniunely concerned with conservation issues, love or hate the ole RSPB. I know for a fact that the scientist concerned only spends about 3 months per year on xbills - hardly a high wage factor. That is why it is important that others continue the work all year round. The answer is with in touching distance..... hopefully.

"Scotbill", that is a resident endemic "Scottish" Crossbill, exists its just it might not be what we think/what we thought it is - possibly ! Thats my opinion at the mo. :gn:

Best wishes,

Linz

 

[griffin]

Think that I'll withdraw from this debate and thread here!

All The Best.

JP

I think I have said way too much already and I will also bow down !

Best wishes,

Lindsay

 

[London Birder]

fascinating stuff Lindsay, keep up the good work

 

[jurek]

Great thread. Did anybody investigate:
- Do young develop same contact call as adults?
- Do adults learn calls in life?
- Are calls learned or genetically based?
- Did anybody look at other genes (microsatellite variation?) to see how long (if at all) various forms of crossbills differentiated?
(if not, it may be relatively quick and worthwhile to do).

 

[crossbill]

Thanks for offering to get Ron's details Lyndsey. However, I have to go through the RSPB press office otherwise they get a bit upset! Sure it won't be a problem for me to speak to him. The rag I work for is called The Herald.

 

[Edward woodwood]

the only sedentary crosser then?

 

[griffin]

Thanks for offering to get Ron's details Lyndsey. However, I have to go through the RSPB press office otherwise they get a bit upset! Sure it won't be a problem for me to speak to him. The rag I work for is called The Herald.

Thats why I asked rather than pass out details. No offence meant by "Rag" - just a term

Bill depth is the best morphological feature along with calls by the way, not bill length though it can differ.

If I were you I would write on how Scotland has successfully been colonised by Osprey's - a real conservation sucess story.......as you can see Scotbill is a rather vague and contentious subject !

Anyhow, I am supposed to be off this thread.

Tim, I have missed your intent - sorry.

Linz

 

[griffin]

Shouda said, BBC did a press release last year or before, could have been a paper ( Scotsman ?) that if global warming continued at current rate Scotbill would have to take up residence in Iceland - utter crap, someone has obviously been misquoted here - the native Scots Pine woods of Iceland ? Hence it is important to get the facts right and not skim "juicy" bits eg. it is a hybrid, etc. Could threaten funding or reputations. Open forums are possibly not the best place to gather info, though they do offer stimulating debate............just a thought. Speak to Ron...........or do the Ospreys !

Linz

 

[Jos Stratford]

Scotbill would have to take up residence in Iceland

Have you recorded the Scotbill call when it's shivering. Wouldn't be able to do EcC calls for starters - only allowed inside the European Union! 3

 

[griffin]

Have you recorded the Scotbill call when it's shivering. Wouldn't be able to do EcC calls for starters - only allowed inside the European Union! 3

See, this is what I mean about context and being misquoted, your post reads:

Originally Posted by Lindsay Cargill - "Scotbill would have to take up residence in Iceland".

Hence my paranoia about journalists ( esp. ones that dont use their real name ).......

Haven't recorded EcC when the xbill has shivered, but sure as heck have recorded it when I have been - I live in Scotland.

Thought it was funny though Jos !

Linz

 

[Edward woodwood]

Linz

sedentary thing was an old joke from not BB

Ciao
Tim

 

[crossbill]

Hence my paranoia about journalists ( esp. ones that dont use their real name ).......

Linz

Journalists are not the most popular of people (for perfectly understandable reasons because there are a minority who couldn't care less for the effect their stories might have on ordinary people and who have given the rest of us a bad name). For that reason, we do tend to get a lot of unpleasant phone calls and letters, whether we deserve them or not. I chose not to use my real name on here because it is a publically accessible forum and, while everyone to whom I have so far spoken has been helpful, knowledgeable and polite, there could be the odd crank who would see it as an opportunity to cause the kind of problems I mentioned above. I notice there are a number of other users on here (and other forums) who use a nickname. I have never before heard of this being a problem.
I would be more than happy to tell you my name Lyndsay, just send me a pm and ask me if you wish to know. By the way, I have already done the story about Ospreys, as have many other newspapers. Unfortunately in my job you always have to find something new.