Poll - Do you agree or disagree with the AOS's recent decision to abandon the use of eponymous bird names? (4 Viewers)

[Paul Chapman]

Well, for me it's quite simple. This is at best a North American and worst a US organisation and its reach should be confined to North American (or US) endemics as appropriate, on jurisdictional grounds.

Anything more than that carried out unilaterally is plain colonialism. Seeking naming rights in respect of scarce migrants/vagrants whose breeding ranges are entirely abroad is Bond-villain megalomania.

John

There are some signs that this may be orchestrated by a Bond villain. See attached.

All the best

Paul

 

[temmie]

With regards to naming colours, Robert Ridgway invented the colour palette we still (or at least in the Americas) use to make the subtle distinction between e.g. chestnut / rufous / brown / rusty / ... or cinnamon-buff, cinnamon-drab, cinnamon-rufous etcetera. You can read the book here, the color cards start at page 44:

Color standards and color nomenclature

library.si.edu

It struck me that the book has been copied many times... in black-and-white!

 

[Paul Chapman]

With regards to naming colours, Robert Ridgway invented the colour palette we still (or at least in the Americas) use to make the subtle distinction between e.g. chestnut / rufous / brown / rusty / ... or cinnamon-buff, cinnamon-drab, cinnamon-rufous etcetera. You can read the book here, the color cards start at page 44:

Color standards and color nomenclature

library.si.edu

It struck me that the book has been copied many times... in black-and-white!

In a quick word search, four references to "flesh" variations. Maybe time for a new edition.

All he best

Paul

 

[temmie]

It would be highly ironic if e.g. Ridgway's Rail was renamed into Flesh-footed Rail... 🙃

 

[SlowLowFlyingTurkey]

Why not change it to Gammon-footed Shearwater? Surely no one could be offended by that.

 

[dantheman]

I was going to post about Flesh-footed Shearwater the other day, but never did ... interesting to see come up ;-)

How rare is it on the US list? Are NZ renaming it?


I'll admit I didn't make the association with it being skin-coloured either. To me 'flesh' indicates the muscley, bloody stuff underneath - same as all humans have, irrespective of 'skin colour/color'. A kind of dark red, although I guess going through to chicken flesh/pale pink) I did google it - flesh is a technical colour term, eg in buying fabric, or perhaps paint. Presumably becoming more outdated/antiquated though. Not a word I use.

I do struggle to see how it could be offensive in some respects, nowadays. But equally, I don't have a problem with it being changed as just one of some names to be changed - I won't see one ever and have no skin in the game.

(The Flesh-footed Shearwater is a nice chocolatey brown colour. I guess it would be totally inappropriate to rename it 'Flesh-coloured Shearwater? ;-) As a 'white' person, I wouldn't be offended.)

 

[qwerty5]

How rare is it on the US list?

Appears to be fairly regular off the Pacific coast.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Appears to be fairly regular off the Pacific coast.

A fair call on Flesh-footed Shearwater from a number of countries:-

O.0026% eBird Checklists United States
0.1210% eBird Checklists Japan
0.1730% eBird Checklists Australia
0.6862% eBird Checklists New Zealand

All the best

Paul

 

[temmie]

I won't see one ever and have no skin in the game.

I see what you did there!

 

[Xenospiza]

Lump it with Pink-footed Shearwater and adopt the latter name: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jbi.14291
"The genetic distances between A. creatopus and A. carneipes, and between P. mauretanicus and P. yelkouan, were within the distribution of genetic distances within the same subspecies."
By the way, both scientific names mean "flesh-footed" (in Greek & Latin).

 

[dave44]

I was going to post about Flesh-footed Shearwater the other day, but never did ... interesting to see come up ;-)

How rare is it on the US list? Are NZ renaming it?


I'll admit I didn't make the association with it being skin-coloured either. To me 'flesh' indicates the muscley, bloody stuff underneath - same as all humans have, irrespective of 'skin colour/color'. A kind of dark red, although I guess going through to chicken flesh/pale pink) I did google it - flesh is a technical colour term, eg in buying fabric, or perhaps paint. Presumably becoming more outdated/antiquated though. Not a word I use.

I do struggle to see how it could be offensive in some respects, nowadays. But equally, I don't have a problem with it being changed as just one of some names to be changed - I won't see one ever and have no skin in the game.

(The Flesh-footed Shearwater is a nice chocolatey brown colour. I guess it would be totally inappropriate to rename it 'Flesh-coloured Shearwater? ;-) As a 'white' person, I wouldn't be offended.)

Its already got another name in New Zealand - Toanui, which is was called for 100's of years before Europeans discovered it & named it after the colour of their skin - I understand the original description specifically says something about skin colour, not meat colour.

Personally, I can understand why some people might find it offensive that the implication was people would just assume skin colour is white/pale and any other skin colour is irrelevant - some people might call that institutional racism

So yeah, why not call it Flesh-coloured Shearwater, its exactly the same principal

 

[wheatearlp]

Does Toanui translate to English? Do any other countries where the shearwater appears have names that translate to English? If so, perhaps there is the answer as the question is out there?

 

[dave44]

Does Toanui translate to English? Do any other countries where the shearwater appears have names that translate to English? If so, perhaps there is the answer as the question is out there?

Not really, apparently it means something like harsh or over-bearing - they are really stroppy & vicious when you handle them - Flesh-eating Shearwater would be a better name, but all the big shearwaters are bad, Buller's (=Rako) is even worse & their necks are so long they can get you however you hold them

 

[Xenospiza]

Giving a bird that breeds more around Australia than around New Zealand a Māori name isn't great either.
And this is not even considering the facts that the Māori have a history of avifaunal destruction and genocide (cue the Moriori).

You must check how toanui is described in the on-line Māori dictionary: toanui - Te Aka Māori Dictionary

 

[wheatearlp]

Giving a bird that breeds more around Australia than around New Zealand a Māori name isn't great either.

That's why I said "Do any other countries where the shearwater appears have names..."

 

[dantheman]

Would it not just be simpler not to give birds names? Or just rename them for yourself each time you go out? Birding would then be mega-inclusive - everyone's life list could be what they wanted it to be, and the average joe* on the inner city street would be just as much an expert as anyone else ...


*(jocelyn/jose/etc etc)

 

[Andy Adcock]

Its already got another name in New Zealand - Toanui, which is was called for 100's of years before Europeans discovered it & named it after the colour of their skin - I understand the original description specifically says something about skin colour, not meat colour.

Personally, I can understand why some people might find it offensive that the implication was people would just assume skin colour is white/pale and any other skin colour is irrelevant - some people might call that institutional racism

So yeah, why not call it Flesh-coloured Shearwater, its exactly the same principal

But it's ok when others do it?

 

[Andy Adcock]

Not really, apparently it means something like harsh or over-bearing - they are really stroppy & vicious when you handle them - Flesh-eating Shearwater would be a better name, but all the big shearwaters are bad, Buller's (=Rako) is even worse & their necks are so long they can get you however you hold them

Stroppy Shearwater then................

 

[Andy Adcock]

We've had two pages now, discussing the merits or otherwise, of various names, this is off topic is it not.

 

[Dave Boyle]

But it's ok when others do it?

I don't understand what you mean?