Poll - Do you agree or disagree with the AOS's recent decision to abandon the use of eponymous bird names? (4 Viewers)

[Trinovid]

It's comments like this which really undermine any attempt for your side to gain a moral high ground in the debate.

You say that with complete indifference to the truth of the statement you declaim. Do some research and you'll see that there was no rhetoric whatsoever in my statement, impossible though it is for the willfully blind to swallow. There is no denying whatsoever that movements like the one in discussion here are absolutely parts of the present day cultural winnowing of which you participate in every time you call it anything other than what it is; the bare truth.

 

[Trinovid]

From my POV, it suggests that birds are going to come up with their own names?

Absolutely brilliant, and I wish they could, completely leaving all other opinions out of it!

 

[Trinovid]

Inca kind of gets at a trend that people of Native descent find irritating, which is the conflation of all pre-contact cultures and civilizations as the same thing. Inca Dove of course doesn't and has never occurred anywhere near the Incan Empire, however people in the past have treated Incas and Aztecs as the same thing in popular culture, even though they are very divergent cultures which never even . Hence why the propose name change, with most of the suggestions favoring a replacing the name with another Native culture that actually occupies that region.

That's an interesting thought and it reminds me of Athabaskan and Tlingit reactions to hearing that they were no longer allowed to call themselves eskimos, and worse yet, that they should henceforth be regarded as Inuit. I have a very vivid memory of my Athabaskan friend relaxing and talking while the news ran in the background. The newscaster said that Alaskan natives should no longer be called the insulting term of eskimo, which got him standing up immediately as he essentially that "But I am a ....... Eskimo! I'm a ........ Athabaskan eskimo"! He totally lost it when she said that the term eskimo needed to be replaced with Inuit when referring to Alaskan natives.

Bald Eagle Is a name that AOS is not reconsidering, nor have I heard much of any complaints about beyond that website. Again...worthwhile pointing out that the AOS is not the same as the BN4B

Good, but I hope bald people don't all of a sudden decide to get all bent out of shape over all the feathers the so-called Bald Eagle has on its head.

 

[Trinovid]

Me too, have the folically challenged, complained?

Don't worry, soon enough they'll find a spokesman for that view as well. With the way things go, it'll also be someone who couldn't stand having hair and had it surgically removed.

 

[Andy Hurley]

All this poll tells you is that people on Birdforum that care enough to comment disagree with the decision. You can not extrapolate ANYTHING about the wider birding public in the US/Canada, given that active posters from that region are a minority here and the sample size is insignificant.

I could post the same poll on the birding memes facebook group and I would probably get 60% pro and 30% against (not that a poll there would also be significant!)

I would argue that those birders are the birders also confused every time there is a taxonomic change. Although a chunk of those probably don't use ebird much anyway. But yes, I expect a greater amount of confusion especially amongst petrels and sparrows. But while we know the patronyms are changing we don't yet know the process. Hopefully it will be in small batches so people get use to names. Dropping 70 at once, especially if there is a public commentary/voting period, would obviously be a bad idea.

I for one, only saw this thread today, as I was looking for something else. If I hadn't stumbled across it, I might have been blissfully unaware of a debate that may or may not make any difference to a professional body in their ivory tower. (Quite typical of acadaemia generally). My second point is I am being forced to making a decision based on other people's reasoning. It might have been better to have another alternative where the voter can then voice his opinion. Sure people can use this thread to voice their concerns, but they won't be included in the vote as it currently stands. Jos explains it eloquently.

You need the category of 'no strong feeling either way ' - that 13.5% can't be added to either category as you suggest as it would be false. It is fully valid that a number of people don't mind if the names are changed or not.

Imagine if you had 100 people and the 'no strong feeling either way' actually accounted for 90 % for them. If these were excluded from the vote, you would then have a poll of just the remaining 10 people. If 6 of them them supported the idea and 4 were against, the poll would have the illusion of 60% in favour, 40% against.

But in reality, it would not reflect public opinion - adding those in the neutral category, the result would be 6% in favour, 4% against, 90% no strong feeling either way. A very different result.

 

[Andy Hurley]

You’re not incorrect there, but there is no harm done with this poll and at the very least it’s worth more than asking random people who seldom think of birds unless they happen to see an eagle what they think on the subject. Not to mention, this is a bird forum and of interest to not only birders, but also people tired of having everything in our world politicized, which is the only thing that the starters of this process are focused on.

Once again, the poll speaks for itself, no differently from any other, and no one is deceiving themselves into believing that it will matter a whit to the AOS what the final results turn out to be.

Those very people are those we need to reach out to. I started birding because I came across a bird hide on holiday and went inside. There were several birders inside that were generous enough to explain what they were doing. After that I was hooked.

I have noticed in my town alone, the numer of people that go birding has dramatically risen since the corona virus lockdowns. I have also noticed people that think that they are superior beings and answer the question "what are looking at/for" with "polar bears and penguins".

Instead of being friendly or helpful. The more people who are interested in birds, the more people who will be interested in nature in general. This means the number interested in conservation and biodiversity loss may also increase. It start the ball rolling. The mention it in their social media and suddenly more people are protesting/complaining about the issue.

Politicians take notice of these things. If they do they put pressure on the gremiums that matter to do something about it. Similarly, If enough people talk about changing bird names, the politicians might start putting pressure on that ivory tower I mentioned up thread.

I remember years ago, (before social media was a thing people did with their telephones), there was a protest in the Uists (Outer Hebrides, Scotland) about the military testing a new secret weapon, the volumatic disintegrator, or something similar. Questions were even raised in the House of Commons, (parliament). It turns out that it was a shredder. The point is people talk to one another and nowadays it is done using social media. Ignore it at your peril!

 

[abirdingguy]

In response to 'abirdingguy', giving me a frowny face for my posting above in relation as to whether or not, we are facing a cultural revolution, if we are not witnessing a 'cultural, revolution', what would you call it, an 'awokening' perhaps?

Totally a cultural revolution. Leftists are everywhere. Be sure to check under your bed before you go to sleep.

 

[Steve Babbs]

Totally a cultural revolution. Leftists are everywhere. Be sure to check under your bed before you go to sleep.

It's worse than that: I found one in my bed.

 

[SlowLowFlyingTurkey]

Inca kind of gets at a trend that people of Native descent find irritating, which is the conflation of all pre-contact cultures and civilizations as the same thing. Inca Dove of course doesn't and has never occurred anywhere near the Incan Empire, however people in the past have treated Incas and Aztecs as the same thing in popular culture, even though they are very divergent cultures which never even . Hence why the propose name change, with most of the suggestions favoring a replacing the name with another Native culture that actually occupies that region.

I'm amazed that this is the only reason for the name change, rather than the brutal and genocidal nature of the Inca Empire. It may have been on a much smaller scale, but the Inca's annihilation of the various Andean cultures that they conquered was otherwise just as sickening as what the European invaders did later. But of course they get a free pass, because colonialism is only bad when white people do it.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Actually it is I believe. There are a small number of birds with non-eponymous names up for being changed. These include the Shearwater as well as Eskimo Curlew, Inca Dove, and I think Maui Parrotbill, although not sure on the last one.

What up with the Parrotbill?

 

[Andy Adcock]

Inca kind of gets at a trend that people of Native descent find irritating, which is the conflation of all pre-contact cultures and civilizations as the same thing. Inca Dove of course doesn't and has never occurred anywhere near the Incan Empire, however people in the past have treated Incas and Aztecs as the same thing in popular culture, even though they are very divergent cultures which never even . Hence why the propose name change, with most of the suggestions favoring a replacing the name with another Native culture that actually occupies that region.

On this basis, we need to rename anything African, European, American and Australian because each of those is an umbrella term for many peoples.

 

[Andy Adcock]

That is my point. It is listed on the Bird Names for Birds website as an offensive name that needs to be changed. They are looking far beyond the AOS.

I definitely think they have much wider ambitions, eventually and arrogantly.

Would be good to know in advance, of any approaches made by the AOS to other naming authorities

 

[Farnboro John]

On this basis, we need to rename anything African, European, American and Australian because each of those is an umbrella term for many peoples.

No, even I can see a difference there. Inca Dove is plain wrong and we all love accuracy so it needs changing. OK, so call it Aztec Dove and end of problem.

The others you refer to are (a) English names and only those for whom English is their native tongue have a right to question them (others can call them whatever they like in their native tongues) and (b) continents and therefore terms for geographic areas, not peoples.

John

 

[Andy Adcock]

nd

No, even I can see a difference there. Inca Dove is plain wrong and we all love accuracy so it needs changing. OK, so call it Aztec Dove and end of problem.

The others you refer to are (a) English names and only those for whom English is their native tongue have a right to question them (others can call them whatever they like in their native tongues) and (b) continents and therefore terms for geographic areas, not peoples.

John

The argument is that terms are used which are imprecise and do not acknowldege the fact that there are groups of people, under the same banner and they seem not to like that. I believe all the words I've described, fit that criteria exactly.

 

[Farnboro John]

nd

The argument is that terms are used which are imprecise and do not acknowldege the fact that there are groups of people, under the same banner and they seem not to like that. I believe all the words I've described, fit that criteria exactly.

But the problem people don't want people associated with bird names and continents are not peoples so their own argument defeats them - in my opinion, which strangely I value more than BYOB or whatever they are called.

John

 

[Xenospiza]

No, even I can see a difference there. Inca Dove is plain wrong and we all love accuracy so it needs changing. OK, so call it Aztec Dove and end of problem.

I don't know who I find more abhorrent, the Incas or the Aztecs.
But maybe I missed that your "end of problem" was ironic.

 

[Farnboro John]

I don't know who I find more abhorrent, the Incas or the Aztecs.
But maybe I missed that your "end of problem" was ironic.

Its just a name and it was all a long time ago. If you want some poetic justice look what happened to them....

This whole name thing is First World problems and I don't care that some people don't like the term First World, either. These people should go and solve war, world poverty, chronic disease and stop thinking that their peripheral temper fits mean anything other than a hopelessly distorted sense of (a) perspective and (b) their own importance.

I mean, plank in my own eye as well but at least I am sufficiently self-aware to see what I'm doing.

John

 

[rahopko]

What up with the Parrotbill?

I cannot find anything that indicates there is a name change in plan for the parrotbill. There was an attempt to change the name back in 2011 when tthe North American Classification Committee (NACC) considered a proposal (2011-A-13) to change the English name of the Maui Parrotbill to a newly suggested Hawaiian name Kiwikiu. The proposal did not pass "We do not adopt local names for species from other areas with non-English speakers (Quebec, Haiti, Mexico, other Caribbean and Central American countries)."

 

[Paul Chapman]

Prompted by Mysticete - many thanks - I actually looked up AOS's membership. About 3,000 members. I was rather left being puzzled why anyone would care about what they thought & why anyone would actually adopt their approach.

Edit - I wonder if there were more people in Maidstone, Kent, England on Saturday 11th February 1989 twitching a Golden-winged Warbler! (It would be ironic if that had been one of the North American Warblers with an eponym. 😀)

All the best

Paul

 

[Mysticete]

Prompted by Mysticete - many thanks - I actually looked up AOS's membership. About 3,000 members. I was rather left being puzzled why anyone would care about what they thought & why anyone would actually adopt their approach.

Edit - I wonder if there were more people in Maidstone, Kent, England on Saturday 11th February 1989 twitching a Golden-winged Warbler! (It would be ironic if that had been one of the North American Warblers with an eponym. 😀)

All the best

Paul

See my response in the other thread.