The Zeiss SFL 8x30 compared with select current 8x30/8x32 roof binoculars (3 Viewers)

[Paultricounty]

Can you expand on that? I mean obviously the field edge is sharper in NL, but in what ways that affects your experience. For me, the point of wide field is detecting peripheral objects and motion, and a greater overall sense of immersion as long as there are no ugly aberrations; EII satisfies that completely, and even has a limpidity or transparency I don't find in any roof model. It might not be the practical one to take to Antarctica, even if I were eightex, but it certainly stands comparison.

Come on Eric you know what I mean. It’s not just the field edge being sharper , the whole FOV is sharper, brighter , better resolution, better transparency and the FOV (sweet spot) is substantially wider because The whole FOV is usable. Your peripheral vision picks up objects in motion even better, because the whole field of view is sharp. And it has snap , crackle and pop. To me binoculars are in two completely different levels of optical quality. A much better comparison to the E2 would be the E or even Oberwerk SE, but even that is brighter and sharper. But I think you baited me here 😲😉

 

[tenex]

No, I'm serious. I've tried NLs only briefly, and of course the outer field is sharper but that doesn't seem to matter as much to me as to some others. I haven't done a direct comparison of central resolution but thought EII's excellent already, though you're motivating me to examine it again tomorrow (not my everyday bin). Two possible differences between us: once a certain level of quality (which does include central sharpness) is met, I'm more interested in the view than detailed technical comparisons; and I may actually prefer models like EII or SLC that deliver a somehow calmer or less busy image than NL or SFL (see how I bring this back on topic, ha). I'm not sure exactly what that means, possibly just the opposite of your "snap crackle pop" (especially in the outer field), and will have to consider it further.

 

[dorubird]

I dare to say that the E2 is in the center the sharpest 8x binocular which I ever tried on chart resolution (here I also include 8x50's or 8x56's)
The resolution and contrast are unreal high, surreal! So when it comes to center clarity, my opinion is that E2 8x30 is at least the same as any alpha roof, plus infinitely better stereoscopic information.
Naturally, it has its limitations (resolution on the edges, small eye relief, no waterproof). But then again, it's center sharp image + 3d magic = surreal show. This E2 makes the best roof binoculars look almost sterile by comparison. This is the E2 personality. It is a surreal show that only a good porro can give us.
I no longer own these binoculars due to the fact that I wear glasses and I need a larger eyerelief. But I already miss the Nikon E2 8x30! Now, only my Swarovski Habicht 7x42 can almost fill the hole left by E2

 

[Thotmosis]

I dare to say that the E2 is in the center the sharpest 8x binocular which I ever tried on chart resolution (here I also include 8x50's or 8x56's)
The resolution and contrast are unreal high, surreal! So when it comes to center clarity, my opinion is that E2 8x30 is at least the same as any alpha roof, plus infinitely better stereoscopic information.
Naturally, it has its limitations (resolution on the edges, small eye relief, no waterproof). But then again, it's center sharp image + 3d magic = surreal show. This E2 makes the best roof binoculars look almost sterile by comparison. This is the E2 personality. It is a surreal show that only a good porro can give us.
I no longer own these binoculars due to the fact that I wear glasses and I need a larger eyerelief. But I already miss the Nikon E2 8x30! Now, only my Swarovski Habicht 7x42 can almost fill the hole left by E2

Did you compare the E2 8x30 with the Habicht 8x 30 by any change and if so what where your findings re center sharpness?

 

[Paultricounty]

No, I'm serious. I've tried NLs only briefly, and of course the outer field is sharper but that doesn't seem to matter as much to me as to some others. I haven't done a direct comparison of central resolution but thought EII's excellent already, though you're motivating me to examine it again tomorrow (not my everyday bin). Two possible differences between us: once a certain level of quality (which does include central sharpness) is met, I'm more interested in the view than detailed technical comparisons; and I may actually prefer models like EII or SLC that deliver a somehow calmer or less busy image than NL or SFL (see how I bring this back on topic, ha). I'm not sure exactly what that means, possibly just the opposite of your "snap crackle pop" (especially in the outer field), and will have to consider it further.

I don’t really get the calmer thing people describe when it comes to the same magnification of a pair of binoculars. I equate calmness when I’m comparing a 10x to an 8x , or even more calmness in a 7x. Now if we’re talking about some binos of the same magnification known to have globe effect in comparison to binos that do not have that trait, then I could understand a little. I might be blessed with not being effected much by globe effect, I can see it , but it has no bother me. Funny thing is , that I haven’t met anybody over the last few years that I’ve observed with that had an issue with globe effect in any binoculars we’ve compared, and we’ve compared the specific known culprits that some have labeled rolling ball monsters 😆.

It’s possible that because some people prefer porros over roofs for that three dimensional sensation might be the bias factor in why one would like the image better or enjoy it more in a mid level porro optic, over the premium alpha roof level options. Ill ad that I’ve had dozens of people look through these two binoculars E2 & NL, and few others alphas in 8x, and everyone was blown away by the NL. The wow factor in an NL as described by many, is breathtaking. I will say my wife likes the E2’s better as well as other small porros we have. But that has to do with two factors , weight and ergonomics. So as you and others have opined people choose a specific bino for personal reason, not always about what has the best optics. I have the E2’s , E C, among other porro binoculars and IMHO they lack that high level pow i get with the top of the line roof options as well as some other porros, like the Nikon SE and swarovski Habicht’s. But that’s just one person’s opinion, oh and the other dozen or two that have agreed with me 🤪✌🏼.

 

[Paultricounty]

I dare to say that the E2 is in the center the sharpest 8x binocular which I ever tried on chart resolution (here I also include 8x50's or 8x56's)
The resolution and contrast are unreal high, surreal! So when it comes to center clarity, my opinion is that E2 8x30 is at least the same as any alpha roof, plus infinitely better stereoscopic information.
Naturally, it has its limitations (resolution on the edges, small eye relief, no waterproof). But then again, it's center sharp image + 3d magic = surreal show. This E2 makes the best roof binoculars look almost sterile by comparison. This is the E2 personality. It is a surreal show that only a good porro can give us.
I no longer own these binoculars due to the fact that I wear glasses and I need a larger eyerelief. But I already miss the Nikon E2 8x30! Now, only my Swarovski Habicht 7x42 can almost fill the hole left by E2

Dorubird, are you saying that the eye relief on the E2 don’t work with eyeglasses but the Habicht does?

A lot of these mId and upper mid level binoculars have great central resolution when measured on a chart, and I’m certainly one for testing specs, but there’s more to the overall image enjoyment and feel that chart numbers don’t always equate to what one’s eyes perceive or enjoy. If we want to compare 3D magic, then we should compare apples to apples. That’s not being done here because we’re comparing an optical trait (3D) in one binocular with another that doesn’t have that trait. I feel surreal describes the overall feeling in the NL’s, EL’s and SF’ to name a few much more than an E2. But if we’re to use the term surreal to describe the 3D effect then the E2, E and some others fall way short on the surreal scale of 3D. Try a comparison with a high quality vintage porro, Bushnell Rangmaster , Swift Holiday MKII etc. etc. You haven’t really experienced that 3-D affect uintl you see it in a superwide with large prisms with wide barrel separation. Just my 2 cents. ✌🏼🙏🏼.

 

[tenex]

So as you and others have opined people choose a specific bino for personal reason, not always about what has the best optics.

"The best optics"... according to your personal taste? I like your term "snap crackle pop" as it's helping me think about this. My instant reaction to SFL was that this effect had been seriously overdone, and I may even have felt that to some extent with NL without being so aware of it; I'll have to try one again now and think about that. It's possible that in dull conditions more "SCP" is unambiguously beneficial. But otherwise, like crude contrast or most anything else, there can be too much of it, and while it may look impressive and take some skill to produce, that doesn't make ever more of it a measure of higher quality; it's just a design choice. (I hope I made clear that my point isn't about 3D magic or Porro vs roof. And frankly I wouldn't mind a somewhat larger sweet spot in EII myself.)

 

[Paultricounty]

This is an interesting discussion because we’re using one trait of an optic to completely label it. Here’s a list to think about. Add and subtract as you will 🙏🏼.

Habicht’s sharpest in center of all binoculars.
Vintage superwides, most 3D effect of all binoculars.
Swaro NL’s widest best corrected FOV of all binoculars.
Nikon EDG best flat field binoculars for panning.
SFL lightest 30mm binoculars.
Swaro SLC 8x56 brightest of all binoculars.

 

[A2GG]

This is an interesting discussion because we’re using one trait of an optic to completely label it. Here’s a list to think about. Add and subtract as you will 🙏🏼.

Habicht’s sharpest in center of all binoculars.
Vintage superwides, most 3D effect of all binoculars.
Swaro NL’s widest best corrected FOV of all binoculars.
Nikon EDG best flat field binoculars for panning.
SFL lightest 30mm binoculars.
Swaro SLC 8x56 brightest of all binoculars.

was curious about this so I looked it up:

Zeiss website has the SFL 8x30 listed at 16.2 ounces
Nikon website has MHG 8x30 listed at 15.9 ounces

 

[Paultricounty]

was curious about this so I looked it up:

Zeiss website has the SFL 8x30 listed at 16.2 ounces
Nikon website has MHG 8x30 listed at 15.9 ounces

Lol, I stand corrected. Is that with the their covers and straps…. You know those Nikon straps,are kind of heavy😛.

 

[brocknroller]

Right, there is this Leica patent for a digital binocular with variable distortion. Hopefully, they are going to make use of this idea ...

Cheers,
Holger

Holger,

Hopefully, Leica uses this patent to become an innovator in digital binoculars instead of rebooting old classics (Retrovid) and following the Peregrine Falcon (Noctivid). And unlike Leica cameras, who only patricians can afford, when digital binocular technology reaches maturity, it will eventually trickle down like other innovations (phase coatings, dielectric coatings, etc.) and become affordable amongst the plebeans.

I would imagine, however, that certain old birders will shun digital binoculars and stick with their Leica 7x35 Retrovids, which by 2050, will be like Leitz 7x35 Bs.

Brock

 

[Scott98]

Put me down as another fan of the E2's. I just sold off my 10x42 EDG in favor of the 10x35 E2. And I picked the 10x42 EDG over the 10x EL and NL's, SF, and UVHD. The E2 show a little more false color but have other things I prefer about them.

Not too worried about the price differences....that's where things get a little crazy with binos anyway

While we're on the subject of porros, I much prefer my 7x35 Nikon E's to the various 8x30 $1000+ compacts being discussed so much right now as well

 

[brocknroller]

I dare to say that the E2 is in the center the sharpest 8x binocular which I ever tried on chart resolution (here I also include 8x50's or 8x56's)
The resolution and contrast are unreal high, surreal! So when it comes to center clarity, my opinion is that E2 8x30 is at least the same as any alpha roof, plus infinitely better stereoscopic information.
Naturally, it has its limitations (resolution on the edges, small eye relief, no waterproof). But then again, it's center sharp image + 3d magic = surreal show. This E2 makes the best roof binoculars look almost sterile by comparison. This is the E2 personality. It is a surreal show that only a good porro can give us.
I no longer own these binoculars due to the fact that I wear glasses and I need a larger eyerelief. But I already miss the Nikon E2 8x30! Now, only my Swarovski Habicht 7x42 can almost fill the hole left by E2

I agree with you 100% about the 2017+ E2. As I wrote in my post on this thread, "alpha view without the alpha price tag." Too bad you need to wear glasses. I should too, for astigmatism, but for daytime use, it doesn't make enough difference to make it worth it. Only in dim light is it noticeable. For stargazing, it is more noticeable.

If the Swaro 7x42 Habicht had an 8* FOV (or even 7.5*), I'd jump on them like a fly on cow manure, but for me, they wouldn't fill the hole left by the E2 (which I soon plan to sell, my 100th Anniversary Edition), but would create a hole (tunnel) with its narrow 45.5* AFOV.

Being a wide field aficionado yourself, I'm surprised the narrow AFOV of the 7x Habicht doesn't make you feel claustrophobic. Does it have a lot of pincushion? That would make the AFOV seem larger.

Does it suffer from veling glare like its baby brother?

BF members can order a 7x42 Habicht (leatherette or GA) from Honey Creek Bill and Beak in Lewistown, PA. Deilver time is 3-4 weeks.

Search Results for “Swarovski Habicht” – Honey Creek Bill & Beak

Gordon, who owns the store, owns a 7x42 Habicht and loves it. So, despite the narrow FOV, it must be a great bin since he could afford to buy any Swaro bin he sells.

Brock

 

[Swissboy]

....................

While we're on the subject of porros, I much prefer my 7x35 Nikon E's to the various 8x30 $1000+ compacts being discussed so much right now as well

It's all a matter of priorities. Water resistance, weight, minimum focus, eye relief suitable for glasses are among those I weigh high, and porros usually do poorly.

 

[Patudo]

The funny thing is, reading some of the comments above, I just don't get the hype about "3D". Maybe it's not apparent at my typical viewing distances, but even at closer distances I don't really see anything more intrinsically attractive about the view through a porro than a roof. If anything I think, as I've mentioned before, that the view through a roof tends to be more immediately accessible, with less adaptation time - I think because the "straight through" barrels more closely approximate what the eye sees, whereas one may need more time to adjust to the perspective that wide set objectives give you.

I appreciate not everyone may have the same perspective. "We have just one world, but we live in different ones..."

 

[tenex]

If I had to pick a single word for the last decade of alpha design at Swarovski/Zeiss it would be "overachievement", just trying to do too much: pushing arguably desirable features further than many would want or need, and several all at once, not without practical drawbacks either. The difference is of course readily visible and marketable, but really doesn't seem to be what I want to spend so many hours using.

Going still further, I don't expect digital bins to ever catch on. (How many dGs were sold?) People who want that are already using zoom cameras, and will continue to. A binocular version just won't be practical or convenient enough for either purpose.

 

[brocknroller]

Put me down as another fan of the E2's. I just sold off my 10x42 EDG in favor of the 10x35 E2. And I picked the 10x42 EDG over the 10x EL and NL's, SF, and UVHD. The E2 show a little more false color but have other things I prefer about them.

Not too worried about the price differences....that's where things get a little crazy with binos anyway

While we're on the subject of porros, I much prefer my 7x35 Nikon E's to the various 8x30 $1000+ compacts being discussed so much right now as well

Done! You are now on the official list of Nikon 8x30 E2 fans. The list includes optics experts Holger, Henry, and Arek (from Allbinos), so you know the E2 must be quality glass.

If ever I see Nikon 7x35 E FMC version for sale, and my pockets are jingling, I would jump on it like paparazzi on Meghan Markle. Gorgeous, intelligent woman. It's awful the way she was treated by the Royals and the UK press. We'll, now she and Harry live in California, which is appropriate since Hollywood stars are America's royalty.

Brock

 

[Scott98]

It's all a matter of priorities. Water resistance, weight, minimum focus, eye relief suitable for glasses are among those I weigh high, and porros usually do poorly.

You get what you pay for in the top roofs, no doubt. The SF 8x42 are the lead dog in my pack. At the same time, there are some things that make the porros fun to use. The compact form and grip of them is unique - maybe it feels right because I grew up using them.

The 10x35 E2 are 21 ounces, that's 6 ounces lighter than my premium 7x42 and 8x42, and still more aperture than the many 30's and 32's which I appreciate. In fact I don't seem to want any bino below 35mm....that's just me. But when it's foggy or wet they must stay home

 

[tenex]

We'll, now she and Harry live in California, which is appropriate since Hollywood stars are America's royalty.

Model modern whingers. Sadly Hollywood may be an ideal spot for enabling that, but they'll never escape that extra "g".

 

[dorubird]

• Thotmosis​

  #244 - I compared but unfortunately not directly. My impression is that they are very similar in clarity overall. Habicht 8x30 may be has a little higher resolution, and E2 8x30 may be a little better contrast

• Paultricounty​

  #246 - Yes Habicht 7x42 has a slightly larger eye relief than E2 8x30. I could use the Nikon E2 8x30 to the limit by pressing on the glasses and I could see almost the entire FOV (not all). Swarovski Habicht 7x42 lets me see the edges of the field stop much much better, and I no longer have to press so hard on my glasses. I can see, not only the field stop very comfortably, but also a lot of black outside it, which is very nice with the Habicht 7x42. With Nikon E2 there is no such thing (I couldn't see the filed stop from the optical axis) - And about clarity, E2 has obvious clarity even without any test on the chart, it has a surreal contrast, on of the best "overall image enjoyment"

• brocknroller​

  #253 - Habicht 7x42 has a bit of geometric deformation on the edges! In fact, I noticed that I really started to like this restrictive FOV of Habicht 7x42 (paradox). I like it because I can "read" it very easily at a glance and it has a well-defined field stop, and the extremely bright circular image floating on a penetrating black background! Each pair of binoculars has its own magic, we just have to discover it! I also discovered the magic of Habicht 7x42 and Nikon E2 8x30 ! - About glare. I have to confess that this Habicht made a very good initial impression on me regarding the glare (influenced by what I have read before). But as I used it, I noticed that the presence of glare is more frequent compared to other binoculars in the same light conditions. But it appears only in certain conditions and not as serious as in the 8x30 version! - below I wrote why I paradoxically began to like the narrow FOV of the Habicht 7x42:

• We have to give Habicht some time to like him. It is not the binoculars that satisfy you from the first use. I noticed a paradoxical thing about these binoculars: the limitation of the field of view in a paradoxical way is really starting to please me! The small AFOV makes it very easy to look at the edges, in a single glance, without moving your head in front of the eyepieces. The image is framed in a perfectly delimited sharp black fieldstop. This clearly outlined frame gives the binoculars a special charm. Naturally, I also like binoculars with a large AFOV. But if the conditions are met regarding the fieldstop clearly defined and easy to look at the edges, I noticed a special pleasure even with binoculars with a small AFOV.
  Another paradox is the constructive simplicity, which makes me appreciate these binoculars more and more, because it gives me a pleasant impression of what is strictly necessary.
  Last but not least, the very uniform transmission over the entire visual spectrum gives very accurate and natural colors. It is the binocular with the most true-to-life colors. But it seems that sometimes I miss the colors of the other binoculars with uneven light transmission, where red and yellow are a little more saturated than in reality, giving the image a little extra appeal, even if artificially.View attachment 1490740View attachment 1490741