When is a site 'coastal'? (1 Viewer)

[Ross Ahmed]

I'm looking for a coastal ringing site in NE England, in the hope of ringing some interesting passerine migrants and the odd rare (such as Dusky Warbler, Bluetail, Red-breasted Fly, Little Bunting etc). To stand the best chance of ringing these species, most would probably agree that I need to be 'on the coast'. However, finding a suitable site right on the coast is proving tricky and it turns out some of the best sites are a little way inland. For example, a nice scrub filled valley is 2km inland, another nice valley is 4km inland and there are several decent looking sites 5-6km inland. I'm wondering how far inland I can go before I stop catching 'coastal' species? Do I need to be right on the coast? Is 5-6km inland still ok? Can anyone think of examples of sites 5-6km inland that still appear to function like sites right on the coast?

 

[Nutcracker]

With ringing, you're standing a better chance than just birding, as you'll still get birds that hide from view. But it still won't have the same concentrating effect that right on the coast has.

 

[Ross Ahmed]

But it still won't have the same concentrating effect that right on the coast has.

Hmm not sure I fully agree…for example if you watch thrushes coming in, many of them don’t land ‘right on the coast’ but instead continue inland until out of view. Variables such as available habitat and weather probably influence whether birds land ‘right on the coast’.

 

[Nutcracker]

Yep; but a lot of smaller birds in particular are exhausted and land right on the coast; they feed up there, and when fed, their next onward flight might be 5 km, or 50 km, or 500 km, so they get dispersed thinly again.

Stronger birds like thrushes, there's no predicting how far they'll keep on going when they overfly the coast. I suspect most of them do not stop until they reach the Pennines where land is less pesticide-ruined so feeding is better. So again, they're dispersed, not concentrated anywhere.

 

[MJB]

I'm looking for a coastal ringing site in NE England, in the hope of ringing some interesting passerine migrants and the odd rare (such as Dusky Warbler, Bluetail, Red-breasted Fly, Little Bunting etc). To stand the best chance of ringing these species, most would probably agree that I need to be 'on the coast'. However, finding a suitable site right on the coast is proving tricky and it turns out some of the best sites are a little way inland. For example, a nice scrub filled valley is 2km inland, another nice valley is 4km inland and there are several decent looking sites 5-6km inland. I'm wondering how far inland I can go before I stop catching 'coastal' species? Do I need to be right on the coast? Is 5-6km inland still ok? Can anyone think of examples of sites 5-6km inland that still appear to function like sites right on the coast?

Hi Ross,
I'm assuming that your ringing objectives include recognisance of, for example, the EU Birds Directive, and as such would align well with the associated definition of 'coastal zone'. I attach the full document, but on page 15, it includes the following list of criteria, while acknowledging that there have been many incompatible definitions used earlier:

1. A 10km buffer from coastline (obtained from administrative boundaries – source GISCO).

2. A 2km buffer from aggregation of five Corine Land Cover classes:
‐*Coastal wetlands (salt marshes, salines, and intertidal flats).

3. ‐*Marine waters (coastal lagoons, estuaries).

(My own thoughts are that any part of a river system whose water levels are raised by incoming tides should also qualify)

In the document, Figure 1 shows the Coastal Zone delimitation map, which should inform your decision!
MJB

 

[Andy Adcock]

Hi Ross,
I'm assuming that your ringing objectives include recognisance of, for example, the EU Birds Directive, and as such would align well with the associated definition of 'coastal zone'. I attach the full document, but on page 15, it includes the following list of criteria, while acknowledging that there have been many incompatible definitions used earlier:


MJB

Are you writing yor own dictionary MJB....should that be 'recognition'? :-O:-O:-O

Waits for accusations of pedantry again.

Anyway, the original question, my own, very simplistic, unprofessional answer would be that it has to be on the coast with a very narrow 'buffer zone' which would certainly not be 10KM.

In relation to rivers and tidal zones, your suggestion would push the definition a very long way inland in places. The definition of 'coastal' species in the OP, is IMHO, wrong, migrants are not typical coastal species, it just happens that they have to make landfall on the coast somewhere.


A

 

[Ross Ahmed]

Yep; but a lot of smaller birds in particular are exhausted and land right on the coast; they feed up there, and when fed, their next onward flight might be 5 km, or 50 km, or 500 km, so they get dispersed thinly again.

Stronger birds like thrushes, there's no predicting how far they'll keep on going when they overfly the coast. I suspect most of them do not stop until they reach the Pennines where land is less pesticide-ruined so feeding is better. So again, they're dispersed, not concentrated anywhere.

That all sounds reasonable Michael, but is this just what you think probably happens? Or do you have evidence to back this up?

A flick through my notebook this provides little evidence for a concentration of birds at the coast. For example, this was my tally on one of the best day’s of the autumn (most other days on the coast were a lot worse than this): 3 Yellow-browed Warbler, Lapland Bunting, 2 Brambling, 4 Whinchat, 1 Lesser Whitethroat, 1 Redstart, 1 Goldcrest, 1 Chiffchaff, 6 Redwing.

 

[Nutcracker]

A flick through my notebook this provides little evidence for a concentration of birds at the coast. For example, this was my tally on one of the best day’s of the autumn (most other days on the coast were a lot worse than this): 3 Yellow-browed Warbler, Lapland Bunting, 2 Brambling, 4 Whinchat, 1 Lesser Whitethroat, 1 Redstart, 1 Goldcrest, 1 Chiffchaff, 6 Redwing.

Well, I guess my evidence is there's not a hope in hell's chance of getting that lot at an inland site :eek!:

Yes, I might well get more Goldcrests in e.g. any of Newcastle's parks, but many of those would be resident breeders. Ditto Lesserthroat up till mid Sep and Chiffies till early or mid Oct when the local breeders tend to clear out; and ditto Redstart even further inland (around here, Redstart is a real mega anywhere between about 0.2 km inland, up to about 20 km inland where you start to get into the breeding population).

 

[Ross Ahmed]

there's not a hope in hell's chance of getting that lot at an inland site!:

Have you considered that expectation bias might be operating? You don’t expect to see these species inland, so you’re not looking for them and as a result you stand a lower chance of seeing them.

Attached is a map of all sightings of Yellow-browed Warbler 22 Sep-22 Nov 2017. Again, little evidence here of a concentration along the coast.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Have you considered that expectation bias might be operating? You don’t expect to see these species inland, so you’re not looking for them and as a result you stand a lower chance of seeing them.

Attached is a map of all sightings of Yellow-browed Warbler 22 Sep-22 Nov 2017. Again, little evidence here of a concentration along the coast.

Black-throated Thrush has plenty if inland records and I've seen two Yellow-browed's in Notts.

Most people search for vagrants on the coast as that the easiest place to find them when they arrive. After they disperse, unless they move to a well watched, inland site, there's little chance of them being seen again but they must be there somewhere, they don't just fly back out to sea.


A

 

[Nutcracker]

Have you considered that expectation bias might be operating? You don’t expect to see these species inland, so you’re not looking for them and as a result you stand a lower chance of seeing them.

Attached is a map of all sightings of Yellow-browed Warbler 22 Sep-22 Nov 2017. Again, little evidence here of a concentration along the coast.

If they were dots rather than great big overlapping blobs (obscuring others close-by), a coastal concentration would be far more evident.

Black-throated Thrush has plenty if inland records and I've seen two Yellow-browed's in Notts.

Most people search for vagrants on the coast as that the easiest place to find them when they arrive. After they disperse, unless they move to a well watched, inland site, there's little chance of them being seen again but they must be there somewhere, they don't just fly back out to sea.

Two Yellow-broweds in Notts - in what period? I had five in a morning at St Mary's Island (coastal) on 26 September 2017. QED. :t:

Like you say, they arrive at the coast, and then disperse inland. Five in an area 0.5 km long by 100 m wide along the coast, becomes five in an area 0.5 km long, by 100 km wide spread out inland.

 

[RafaelMatias]

If they were dots rather than great big overlapping blobs (obscuring others close-by), a coastal concentration would be far more evident.

The map is at a scale too small to be useful, indeed. Still, you can see a concentration of records at coastal sites in Ireland. I think even more importantly than the scale the map is shown, is the fact that you are referring to a 2 month period and this will probably mean that inland records might (or almost certainly) include individuals already recorded at coastal sites (i.e. double counted), relocating inland, and not only fresh arrivals. Analyzing that whole period in e.g. short 2-week periods would perhaps be a better choice to see how distribution evolves with time.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Two Yellow-broweds in Notts - in what period? I had five in a morning at St Mary's Island (coastal) on 26 September 2017. QED. :t:

What's your point Nutty?

Mine is that even in Nottingham which is just about as far from the coast as is possible in the UK, Yellow-browed's turn up, of course they're commoner on the coast, I never argued that.

I've seen all three regular Diver's in Notts and most, regular Yank waders, does that make Notts coastal?

A

 

[Farnboro John]

I think your question would be most usefully put to the BTO, and many on here would be interested in the answer.

Having said that, my feeling is that its a no-brainer that coastal sites score scarcities/rarities substantially more and that your example from this autumn owes more to prevailing weather conditions than any annual tendency: and as a result your site selection needs more data than you offer.

John

 

[Ross Ahmed]

coastal sites score scarcities/rarities

Thanks for veering the thread back towards the original question.

The large area of woodland in attached lies 2km from the coast at its closest point. Is this too far from the coast to get the same stuff as a site right on the coast?

 

[MJB]

Are you writing yor own dictionary MJB....should that be 'recognition'? :-O:-O:-O

Waits for accusations of pedantry again.

A

It's a fair cop guv! Two parallel thoughts, one finger typing....:t::t::t:
MJB

 

[pppppvvvv]

I suspect there are too many variables, and too little data to get anything beyond a gut feeling. But wherever you choose, there is no such thing as bad data!

I believe that chances are increased due to bigger catchment areas for any good habitat.. Good habitat 2km inland could be productive if it stands out against, for example, a concrete jungle of built up areas. Even if a migrant crashes into the first bit of land, exhausted, it may still have seen the good habitat, and make it's way there if it gets the chance.

But if it means flying past acres of good cover to get there, then the chances diminish.

Any further inland, and I think the leapfrog effect comes into play, where migrants land on or near the coast, and don't continue inland until conditions are good.. the chances of them being grounded within 20-30km is probably close to nil.

I think I get a lot of this in the spring, 10-15 miles inland of the South coast. Very difficult to find "scarcer" migrants. Falls I have seen, brought down by overnight rain, were presumably birds that kept going over the coast and inland before getting caught out. So I look out for good conditions in France and the channel, with a band of bad weather hitting from the North overnight, which is a pretty unusual combination.

 

[MJB]

Thanks for veering the thread back towards the original question.

The large area of woodland in attached lies 2km from the coast at its closest point. Is this too far from the coast to get the same stuff as a site right on the coast?

Ross,
I've no relevant experience to answer your question, but the attached image, just east of your picture, obviously a private site, looks ideal for several nets just behind the boundary hedge and within the enclosed area near water and trees/shrubs.
MJB

 

[pppppvvvv]

I'm only guessing, but I think, if the road parallel to the coast was well lit, birds could mistake it for the coast in bad weather, and be drawn to your wood.
But on the downside, that's a pretty big wood right next to it.

 

[Nutcracker]

Thanks for veering the thread back towards the original question.

The large area of woodland in attached lies 2km from the coast at its closest point. Is this too far from the coast to get the same stuff as a site right on the coast?

The east side might be worth a try, yes; I know the site, and its on a hill slope, so clearly visible from not just the coast, but from well offshore. So birds that are not so exhausted as to need to drop into Holy Island may well make it to there for their first feeding stop.

The main block just west - Kyloe Wood - is a fascinating place. One of the foresters there told me of seeing a flock of 40 birds 'many years ago' that 'looked like chaffinches but some were red all over', feeding on larch cones :t:

The trees there are BIG though, you'd need some way of stringing your nets up 50 metres up in the air 3 (pic: 57 metres tall Abies grandis in Kyloe)