Deer culling the natural way (1 Viewer)

[MiddleRiver]

If I recall correctly, I heard of someone in western Virginia who killed 35 deer in one night with a control permit. I really don't understand this. Surely there weren't this many deer 100 years ago, and I'm guessing we had fewer predators then. My thinking is that some sort of course correction is inevitable, and it probably won't have anything to do with any human attempts to fix it. Personally I don't see wolves coming back to the eastern U.S., there is just far too many people and not enough huge tracts of habitat.

I am thinking, with this many deer, maybe a state will come up with a plan to harvest large numbers and use the meat.

Certain locations actually hire special-permitted teams to come in at night (with night vision) and cull herds of deer.

The overpopulation is in fact (according to what I've read) lack of predators and of course large scale farming which is essentially like feeding deer. We just drove past a soybean field where a half dozen deer were grazing away happily, up to their haunches in salad. Hunting is actually down (a least where I live), for a number of reasons including the obvious - less interest from youth (too hard to get out of bed 6am on a freezing morning), social stigma of killing deer, lack of places TO hunt, etc.

Here's a good summary: Outdoor America Article

In Virginia where we live, unwanted venison can be donated to Hunters for the Hungry. Hunters for the Hungry

 

[qwerty5]

The overpopulation is in fact (according to what I've read) lack of predators and of course large scale farming which is essentially like feeding deer.

I get this, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. There are more bears, mountain lions, and coyotes around then there used to be (unless I am mistaken) and farming isn't exactly new (perhaps it's more efficient farming, e.g. more high-yielding crops and less pastures).

Where I live in Ohio deer populations are not too high yet, but they certainly are increasing, along with coyotes, hawks and other high-visibility wildlife.

 

[MiddleRiver]

I get this, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. There are more bears, mountain lions, and coyotes around then there used to be (unless I am mistaken) and farming isn't exactly new (perhaps it's more efficient farming, e.g. more high-yielding crops and less pastures).

Where I live in Ohio deer populations are not too high yet, but they certainly are increasing, along with coyotes, hawks and other high-visibility wildlife.

That's not the case in Shenandoah Valley where I live. Zero predators. Coyotes killed on sight. Wolves declared extinct in VA 1980's...
Urban centers are even worse. Deer are like squirrels... everywhere, in everyone's yard. And there sure aren't predators there!

In 23 years living here, we've seen exactly one Coyote and occasionally have caught bobcat on game-cams. Herds of a dozen or more deer are not unusual, on a daily basis.

If you google it, you'll have TONS of stuff to read and it's not all hunting trash-talk. Lots of studies by wildlife biologists. And the negative impact (on other species including birds) is also well documented.

 

[Scott98]

Who here shares my disappointment in humanity

As Carl Jung said, “None of us stands outside humanity’s black collective shadow.”

Interesting report from Virginia. I live pretty far north in Massachusetts, I'm actually north of Brattleboro, Vermont in latitude. The coyotes here are hybrdizing with wolves coming down from Canada, it's easy to see if you spend a lot of time out late at night like I do. I've seen hybrid animals of 50, 60 pounds and even bigger. The pack were I live are large animals and their calls sound more like wolves than coyotes. Most locals in the New England mountains believe both mountain lions and wolves have re-introduced themselves from Canada.

As the hybrids here get bigger and/or are joined by actual wolves they are starting to take fawns and now larger deer. Many suburban towns have total bans on hunting, even bow hunting, so these animals are the only thing we've got to control the deer. Besides disease of course.

Anyone that does gardening hates the deer overpopulation. You see some houses with 8-foot fencing completely surrounding their property and you know they like gardening. A local farm culled the whole herd a few years ago, legally, and most people were cheering them on. I was hoping to see venison sausage at their farmstand but I guess the family ate all the meat.

 

[qwerty5]

That's not the case in Shenandoah Valley where I live. Zero predators. Coyotes killed on sight. Wolves declared extinct in VA 1980's...
Urban centers are even worse. Deer are like squirrels... everywhere, in everyone's yard. And there sure aren't predators there!

In 23 years living here, we've seen exactly one Coyote and occasionally have caught bobcat on game-cams. Herds of a dozen or more deer are not unusual, on a daily basis.

If you google it, you'll have TONS of stuff to read and it's not all hunting trash-talk. Lots of studies by wildlife biologists. And the negative impact (on other species including birds) is also well documented.

Hmm, the difference I guess is probably population density. Deer can coexist in suburbia much better than predators (or hunters). I have family in Franklin County, VA, who report increasing numbers of bear and I've heard of at least one mountain lion.

So perhaps the overpopulation is in part due to the expansion of suburbia and the deer adapting to it, while the predators cannot.

 

[qwerty5]

Sigh... I googled "deer overpopulation", and wow, Scientific American is an insult to the word "scientific".

Thankfully there are some good articles out there as well. It seems Cuyahoga National Park has a good thing going: Are There Too Many Deer? - Cuyahoga Valley National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

 

[Farnboro John]

Entirely agree. It will put food on some folks table, especially the desperate families on low income. I too don't understand the need to kill so many animals in one go, surely too many for the pot, even if you froze one.
John, change of heart regarding reintroduction? Either of these species would have to fenced or penned in to protect them from stupid trophy hunters. And isn't this the type of "zoo" you have a dislike for? ( Devil's debating advocate here ).

NB. I am not vegan though I have reduced my overall intake of red meat, to an occassional treat.

Shoot the trophy hunters.

Anyway, its no good fencing them in, they need to be able to move over their normal ranges in order to have their keystone effects on the problem species (deer) - just as Beavers do, the current vogue for enclosures isn't reintroduction its a nonsense. Also, I don't know if you saw the re-runs of Simon Reeves' look at the Lake District but it was made clear over-grazing by farm livestock - sheep, ponies and cattle - was responsible for the denuded state of the uplands there: farmers need to run far fewer livestock animals to have a proper effect on the environment. One was even trying to explain his introduction of Galloway cattle into woodland as a great thing because they would mimic the effect of Wisent. Why not have Wisent then? Perhaps its time for upland farmers, who spend a lot of time whingeing about their difficulties, to make way for nature.

If they want to stay, there are plenty of precedents for compensation schemes. There are plenty of precedents for eco-tourism out-pointing farming in terms of contribution to the local economy, as well. Chance to see and photograph wild Wolves in the UK? Count me in....

John

 

[Mono]

There are plenty of folk up here, including in "Friends of the Lake District", who view the current state of the Lakes as the way it should always be. Hill farmers are working hard for a pittance yet they carry on as they perversely think they "preserving the Lake District". The current thinking amongst the agricultural powers-that-be around here is that the hill farmers should be paid to keep sheep on the fells!

 

[qwerty5]

One was even trying to explain his introduction of Galloway cattle into woodland as a great thing because they would mimic the effect of Wisent. Why not have Wisent then? Perhaps its time for upland farmers, who spend a lot of time whingeing about their difficulties, to make way for nature

I have no idea of the details here, so you may well be right. But it's worthy to discuss the fact that the bison aren't going to be producing any meat to eat. It is impossible (and unnecessary) to conserve all land as purely natural, but the land that isn't conserved should still be managed in a way to maximize efficiency and minimize negative environmental impacts (which are rarely exclusive).

 

[Farnboro John]

I have no idea of the details here, so you may well be right. But it's worthy to discuss the fact that the bison aren't going to be producing any meat to eat. It is impossible (and unnecessary) to conserve all land as purely natural, but the land that isn't conserved should still be managed in a way to maximize efficiency and minimize negative environmental impacts (which are rarely exclusive).

There's no reason Bison (Wisent) can't produce wild cattle meat in the same environment as Galloway cattle would, on the same basis as wild venison is sold. Provided they are either increasing to fill the niche or in a stable situation their meat can be harvested as any other would.

John

 

[qwerty5]

There's no reason Bison (Wisent) can't produce wild cattle meat in the same environment as Galloway cattle would, on the same basis as wild venison is sold. Provided they are either increasing to fill the niche or in a stable situation their meat can be harvested as any other would.

John

That's entirely reasonable, I guess I misunderstood your post

 

[Trinovid]

Shoot the trophy hunters.

Shoot the ones who initiate conversations about shooting others. They usually profess to hate violence, but let out their true colors when wanting others done away with. Violent rhetoric never leads in a good, or decent direction.

 

[gemma23426]

I'm of the opinion that exploring natural predators in deer culling holds promise. It's essential to remember that ecosystems are intricate, and any intervention, even a natural one, requires careful consideration. We're navigating a fine line between ecological stability and human impact. Our collective insights can pave the way for a balanced solution.

 

[Farnboro John]

Shoot the ones who initiate conversations about shooting others. They usually profess to hate violence, but let out their true colors when wanting others done away with. Violent rhetoric never leads in a good, or decent direction.

Obviously you neither know me nor are familiar with my tendency to flippancy in posting.

Trophy hunting - except legally for deer antlers - is not really an issue in the UK: our problem is estate owners killing predators illegally to protect the wild game that they consider "theirs" and a corrupt hierarchy that lets the criminals off with minimal punishment. The answer to that is enforcement and sentencing, and rooting out the corruption.

John

 

[Trinovid]

Obviously you neither know me nor are familiar with my tendency to flippancy in posting.

More obvious than that is that you think talk of killing others on a public forum is nothing to be taken seriously. From your view there's no need for anyone to cut you slack for that, as you've already done so for yourself. How big of you.

 

[Farnboro John]

More obvious than that is that you think talk of killing others on a public forum is nothing to be taken seriously. From your view there's no need for anyone to cut you slack for that, as you've already done so for yourself. How big of you.

Actually it's more worrying that you think people would talk seriously of killing others. But as I said there are no predator trophy hunters in Britain so its a non-existent set: the predator hunters have to dispose of the evidence to avoid prosecution, not put it on the wall to gloat over the power of firearms.

John

 

[PYRTLE]

More obvious than that is that you think talk of killing others on a public forum is nothing to be taken seriously. From your view there's no need for anyone to cut you slack for that, as you've already done so for yourself. How big of you.

Ease up fellah, let it go. FJ whilst being extremely articulate, researched and experienced is also quick to tease and enjoy a belly laugh. He really doesn't need my support apart from also concuring that trophy hunters are abhorant and repulsive.
As to the reality of Bison meat, I'm not entirely convinced it would find a place on the supermarket shelves in sufficient quantity and price point to be viable. But the argument alongside the Galloway breed makes sense. Personally I would like to see Water Buffalo stomping and churning up some of Norfolk's Broadland marshes. Tasty milk and creamy mozzarella..... mmm.

 

[maplekong]

Obviously you neither know me nor are familiar with my tendency to flippancy in posting.

John is very good at being reckless, flippant indeed and quick to offend. I haven't been here a long time but I think I know that he's very knowledgeable, isn't really wanting to do anyone harm, is good at accidentally riling people up, can be stubborn (like me), but because he cares about stuff in general, and is not afraid to show it. He also likes eating birds as much as watching them, probably did a lot of rash things in his youth, and I think on the whole would make an excellent conspiracy theorist (imagine it- him preaching the Mark Zuckerberg is a lizard).

 

[maplekong]

He would also overrun Parliament if he could, and replace everyone with people he thought would do a good job, before giving up and end up rather grumpy but happy running everything himself. I would like that world.

 

[MiddleRiver]

John is very good at being reckless, flippant indeed and quick to offend. I haven't been here a long time but I think I know that he's very knowledgeable, isn't really wanting to do anyone harm, is good at accidentally riling people up, can be stubborn (like me), but because he cares about stuff in general, and is not afraid to show it. He also likes eating birds as much as watching them, probably did a lot of rash things in his youth, and I think on the whole would make an excellent conspiracy theorist (imagine it- him preaching the Mark Zuckerberg is a lizard).

Also, sadly, tho I've never met him, he doesn't seem worth eating himself. That profile photo makes me think he'd be tough and hard-to-chew.