Premium (Alpha) vs Image stabilized (2 Viewers)

[exup]

exup, I agree, we don't know and probably wont. Prolly the more important statistics, regards strategic planning would be the change in sales. Which segment (is vs non is), is growing and at what rate. Birders, hunters and everybody else comprises the whole of it. Id be real curious about the latter group, suspect they may be more innovation, newest thing, oriented.

Non-IS bins are a mature product (160+ years).
Adding active elements to remove the biggest degrading factor (35% shake) for handheld bins is an obvious stepped change. IMHO this is bound to be the major path of bin development.

The compromises present today with IS bins are weight, size and warranty/ life.
If one accepts these, then the reward is the greatly improved image

 

[Conndomat]

Id be real curious about the latter group, suspect they may be more innovation, newest thing, oriented.

No, binoculars are at best a niche product, most people have zero interest in them and if the "normal" citizen buys binoculars, then it's the said 100-200 euro binoculars.

We are in an optics bubble here, thinking that binoculars are the most important thing in the world, the normal consumer just shakes his head.

If IS were the greatest innovation in binoculars, the Chinese would have introduced this principle to the cheap market, because that generates the highest profits.

What we are discussing here, CA, contrast, stray light suppression etc. nobody cares out there, they are just binoculars...

Andreas

 

[exup]

But only if enough people buy it, otherwise it's just an accessory.

You have a perception that this product is not popular.....yet it is reviewed often for a decade (even t3!) And is used in multiple domains..... astronomy, boating, .....etc.

It has outlasted most individual Alpha models and still outperforms all of them today as a tool.

Birders are only a single group and have a subset of needs, but do have brand 'loyality' with S, L, Z. They are also happy to pay £2500 per set of alpha bins. Why would S, L, Z have to change, when they have a low volume, very high mark up business model.

 

[kimmik]

Non-IS bins are a mature product (160+ years).
Adding active elements to remove the biggest degrading factor (35% shake) for handheld bins is an obvious stepped change. IMHO this is bound to be the major path of bin development.

absolutely an area of development.

look how gorgeous and compact canon RF IS lenses are, hinting at how much further canon binos can develop, but don't due to market size.

 

[Conndomat]

You have a perception that this product is not popular.....yet it is reviewed often for a decade (even t3!) And is used in multiple domains..... astronomy, boating, .....etc.

It's just not popular enough to push Z/S/L out of the alpha market or even remotely generate the sales numbers of an EL or NL.

It's no use having a good glass on offer if most buyers don't want it.

Andreas

 

[exup]

absolutely an area of development.

look how gorgeous and compact canon RF IS lenses are, hinting at how much further canon binos can develop, but don't due to market size.

View attachment 1461368

Yes, IS bins (Canon or any other make), have another 150 years to catch-up with passive bins.

But, already they outperform non-IS bins today.

Sony put IS in the body of the camera and not in the lens ...... so there are design options to remove the shake due to handholding. The point is that the degrading effect of shake is removed by active electronics.

How many people today use 35mm SLRs, with no electronics? (I still have, with a full compliment of kit to develop and print in a darkroom).

 

[exup]

It's just not popular enough to push Z/S/L out of the alpha market or even remotely generate the sales numbers of an EL or NL.

It's no use having a good glass on offer if most buyers don't want it.

Andreas

You don't know what the sales numbers are ....pure speculation, based on your perceptions.

 

[GrampaTom]

Non-IS bins are a mature product (160+ years).
Adding active elements to remove the biggest degrading factor (35% shake) for handheld bins is an obvious stepped change. IMHO this is bound to be the major path of bin development.

The compromises present today with IS bins are weight, size and warranty/ life.
If one accepts these, then the reward is the greatly improved image

Not sure how mine and yours relate, sorry

 

[Conndomat]

You don't know what the sales numbers are ....pure speculation, based on your perceptions.

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Andreas

 

[GrampaTom]

No, binoculars are at best a niche product, most people have zero interest in them and if the "normal" citizen buys binoculars, then it's the said 100-200 euro binoculars.

We are in an optics bubble here, thinking that binoculars are the most important thing in the world, the normal consumer just shakes his head.

If IS were the greatest innovation in binoculars, the Chinese would have introduced this principle to the cheap market, because that generates the highest profits.

What we are discussing here, CA, contrast, stray light suppression etc. nobody cares out there, they are just binoculars...

Andreas

Not so sure.. Id agree we here on bird forum are a niche group, but binos worldwide to all consumers a niche thing? Im skeptical. IS has been put in several different consumer product for years, for whatever reason just now finding its way here. Creating demand as seems now to be happening, (why I want that delta data), combined with driving down costs do to the inexorable progress of tech, aided and abetted by lower cost sourcing will broaden the reach.

 

[Conndomat]

Not so sure.. Id agree we here on bird forum are a niche group, but binos worldwide to all consumers a niche thing?

I'm talking about worldwide!

We live in an affluent society here in North America and Europe and can therefore argue about CA and edge blur in binoculars, how many people do you think are really interested in that?
The "normal" citizen usually buys a pair of binoculars for 100 or 200 euros and doesn't care.
Most people in the world have other problems that are more important first, I think over 99% of people are not interested in long range optics at all.
Of course, no one knows what will happen in 30 or 50 years, at least at the moment I can't see any major breakthrough in IS binoculars, I've been to birder groups and astronomers a lot, IS binoculars are an absolute exception.

Maybe the time hasn't come yet, I think most people still prefer "normal" binoculars for now.

Andreas

 

[Paultricounty]

It's all about the IS binoculars and those are just 2-3 buckets of apples.

Why has the Canon 10x42 been practically unchanged for many years, it just didn't make it in the alpha market.

Andreas

Weight, ergonomics, possible issues after or before ten years, thus making them more expensive than premium non IS, if needing repairs or replacement in that time frame. And at $1500 for the L’s your very close to premium options. No changes to the L has been made since 2014 , according to reliable sources at Canon and a major US retailer I’ve done business with for twenty years. I’m not really sure eight years means something one way or another.

I will say, that retailer has dozens of these in stack at any given time and has told me its rear that they see them come back. They all suggest the 3 year extended no fault ins. I didn’t get into sales numbers at the time I purchased my L, because it wasn’t on my mind. I’m ordering something this week and I’ll dig a little into sales number and/or ratios with other bins.

Paul

 

[GrampaTom]

I'm talking about worldwide!

We live in an affluent society here in North America and Europe and can therefore argue about CA and edge blur in binoculars, how many people do you think are really interested in that?
The "normal" citizen usually buys a pair of binoculars for 100 or 200 euros and doesn't care.
Most people in the world have other problems that are more important first, I think over 99% of people are not interested in long range optics at all.
Of course, no one knows what will happen in 30 or 50 years, at least at the moment I can't see any major breakthrough in IS binoculars, I've been to birder groups and astronomers a lot, IS binoculars are an absolute exception.

Maybe the time hasn't come yet, I think most people still prefer "normal" binoculars for now.

Andreas

Not following, sorry.

 

[Conndomat]

Not following, sorry.

It's very simple, I think that over 99% of people have no interest in long-distance optics, so binoculars will always remain a niche product.

Andreas

 

[GrampaTom]

.01 x 7,000,000,000= 7,000,000. Not too slouchy.... Thats a lot of binos!

My experience is a little different. While most households in westernized economies, or at least those with significant middle income citizens, may not be passionate as we are here on BF, there's good chance theres a bino in the house somewhere. What value? depends. As the cost of producing a feature falls and the marketing that promotes the feature upshifts, those that dont know they want it now, will then.

Hard to take too firm a stance on this one methinks. I'm not.

 

[kimmik]

The analogy of “Rolex” vs Smartwatch is an interesting one. I wear smart watch, yet use conventional bino.

IS bino is more like the casio digital watch of the 20th century but asking for near Rolex price …

 

[exup]

All this talk and wild speculation of market share and volume of sales........ Personally I don't care or think it is of much relevance.

I made a choice to pick a number of IS bins over Alphas, because they are more effective optical tools for observing with handheld.

If I need light weight and portable, then I compromise viewing and use non alpha, non-IS roof or porros.

If one feels that buying S,L or Z bins with massive markups in price is for them, then I have no problem with that either.

Most hobbies today have large levels of disposable income ploughed into them in affluent countries. With bird watching, the money is mostly spent on binoculars/scopes and then forums like this can debate tiny differences in image delivery for hours on end 😁

It seems that Alphas are a status symbol too, to many 🤣😂 buyers.......just like a Rolex.

 

[kimmik]

If one feels that buying S,L or Z bins with massive markups in price is for them, then I have no problem with that either.

So whats the markup for canon?

Silicon chips are among the cheapest things to make. Especially 20 year old designs.

Making things durable is what costs.

 

[exup]

So whats the markup for canon?

Silicon chips are among the cheapest things to make. Especially 20 year old designs.

Making things durable is what costs.

You believe that adding an active control system to a quality optical device is a minor and cheap piece of engineering 🤣😂.

Without the electronics system, the 10x42L is already near Alpha optics quality.

You do know that Swaro has an IS bin? But £6k ...... nice optics (apparently), but narrow FoV and ergonomics bad.

Even the 12x36III will show more detail than a handheld Alpha and it has mid range optics and costs a third of an Alpha. It weighs 702g including batteries, so likely lighter too.

 

[kimmik]

You believe that adding an active control system to a quality optical device is a minor and cheap piece of engineering 🤣😂.

Yes. This is where you have no idea.

There is nothing magic about IS - two axis actuators, gyros, some comparators and a power system (battery).

It is literally a dollar’s worth of stuff these days.

I will take apart a Canon IS lens for you tonight and explain the parts.