Harrier-Kuwait (presumably) (1 Viewer)

[Tib78]

Hi all,

I was doing some reading on http://10000birds.com/ and I came accross this picture: http://10000birds.com/where-are-you-birding-this-first-weekend-of-october-2008.htm labelled 'juvenile Pallid harrier'...

What do you guys reckon?

 

[Lappkrabben]

Montagu's i would say based on weak collar and dark trailing edge on inner primaries. The white patches around the eye are broader than in most (all?) Pallid.

But as i look again on this pic i get a bit insucure on how strong the trailing edge really are...

 

[OlaB]

I think it looks very good for Montagu's. What Mattias mentions along with dark fingers gives me a clear impression. Harder to asses wing formula from this pic but I think it is a Montagu's

 

[Tib78]

I had forgotten this thread!
Thank you both for your comments, and I agree on Montagu's of course (hence my posting).
Apart from the pale collar (about which we know that it can be shown by juv Montagu's), I couldn't spot any feature in favour of Pallid.

What about this juv Ringtail harrier from Lanzarote, IDed as a Montagu's (scroll down to Thursday, October 1, 2009):
http://www.surfbirds.com/blog/birdinglanzarote/page2/&thisy=&thism=&thisd= ?

 

[Lappkrabben]

What do you reckon Tib78 ?

I think the Lanzarote-bird looks odd when it comes to face with the missing white "claw-shape"-pattern around the eye for a Montagu's.

But in neck-colour it lacks the strong dark-pale-dark that pallid show. The head looks small and the shape of body rather slim.

A Monty can show a light boa/collar and i belive this bird is a odd 1cy MH.

I don't feel completly confident when i can't see the pale or dark trailing edge of inner primaries (from below).

 

[Gordon]

Also pro-Monty's for the original bird - the lack of a "boomerang", ie, a contrasting, unbarred patch towards the primary base on the underwing.

cheers
Gordon

 

[Tib78]

What do you reckon Tib78 ?

Hi Mattias,

Well the bird looks like a good Pallid Harrier to me.

The first thing that caught my attention is the face pattern with the black cheek reaching the lower mandible, long supercilium giving an 'agressive look' and HUGE bill (by pygmac standards).
Despite the lack of a dark boa, the collar is well defined and stands out quite well on both pictures.

But after your comment, I decided to look a little harder...

Like you, I'd rather have a view of the underwing to be confident, however in this case, the pictures are so good that, owing to translucency, I think we can have a pretty good idea of the underwing marking.
On the Lanzarote harrier, there seems to be a dark subterminal bar along the inner primaries leaving relatively pale tips... (well I hope this is not only wishfull thinking, I have attached a photo editing to show what I mean).
On the second shot, the underside of the the right wing tip is visible and the fingers appears quite pale.

Finally, wing formula seems to favour Pallid: P10 looks shorter than P6 while in Montagu's P10 is rougly equal to P6.

A few pictures for comparison purpose:
- juv pallid with weak boa (scroll down to the last 2 pictures)http://birdingfrontiers.com/2011/10/13/juvenile-pallid-harrier-identification/
-juv pallid with dark subtermial band on inner primaries, but still showing little pale tips http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=Jniemi1221148960&lang=eng

 

[Lappkrabben]

Hi Tib78 and others,

Well i'm not arguing against that.

I yet a lot to learn when it comes to judge the bill-size in this species, i'm not used to judge the trailing edge from the angle i can see on the pic and having difficulties to judge the wingformula.

Thanks for good input Tib78, it's up to me to use it in practice (wich i as written above yet have a long way to go)

 

[Tib78]

Yet another difficult harrier from Spain this time: http://www.rarebirdspain.net/arbsr508.htm

Edit: I am pro-Montagu's on this one...

 

[OlaB]

I agree! Those wings (including wing pattern) fits good an a Monty imo. The face pattern with so much white is also very Monty to me.

 

[Lappkrabben]

I have learned a lot from this thread and i'm also in the Monty pit on Tibs last one ! Based on dark trailing edge, face (white) and the black does not reach LM.

And while we have this harrier gallore, here is a former problem Monty from Denmark (and i clearly see the kind-look etc on this one);

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=23073

 

[Tib78]

And while we have this harrier gallore, here is a former problem Monty from Denmark (and i clearly see the kind-look etc on this one);

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=23073

Ah yes, I remember this one! Another tricky individual (honestly I would have loved to see the underwing pattern of this one!) and the comment of experts such as Tom Lindroos and Hans Larsson is more than welcome. I especialy like HL's meaningful comment: 'angry pallid' vs 'goofy monty's'. Thanks for posting it Mattias.
Indeed, the white supercilium of juv Pallid seems better defined in front of the eye than on juv Montagu's giving the 'agressive look' or even 'rapacious' when it's pale eyed younger male Pallid

'Goofy' Monty's: http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=Dick1316615699&lang=eng

'Angry' Pallid: http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=linto1221331604&lang=eng


By the way, as I was looking for pictures of juv Montagu's I found another picture of the OP bird. It's correctly labelled as a Montagu's on hawar-islands (scroll down to 27 september 2008): http://www.hawar-islands.com/blog/14_stub.php/2008/11/
Strange...