Birecik, SE Turkey currently safe? (1 Viewer)

[wolfbirder]

Also posted this in 'Information Wanted' section.

I am certainly not trying to unnecessarily scare people off from visiting this wonderful birding area, but the attached highlights the control of the border area between Turkey and Syria. Birecik lies just 20kms from the very sensitive border area. Please do view the attached 2013 article, I suspect the situation is still the same if not worsened from a safety aspect.

http://www.noria-research.com/2014/...-areas-in-the-context-of-the-syrian-conflict/

The Kurdish PKK have previously been the only group recognised as a terrorist group within Turkey's south-eastern provinces, a group who have for years been in dispute with the Turkish Government itself over independence and recognition. The Kurdish people they represent have actually benefitted from some western protection and intervention in recent years, and kidnapping westerners is not a behaviour trait they have generally indulged in. They have agreed a ceasefire with the Turkish Govt in recent years.

However, the establishment of Islamic Front (IS/ISIS/ISIL) who are the opposition group fighting the Assad Government in neighbouring Syria, were previously supported to some degree by the west and Turkey (ISIS as with Al Qaida were said to have been trained and financed by the US when they first set up), & this has resulted in them making unprecedented gains, partly controlling the border between Turkey and Syria on the Syrian side, and they have recently taken a stranglehold around the Syrian capital Aleppo which itself is only about 50 miles from the Turkish border. Aleppo maybe on the verge of collapse. The support of ISIS largely came through Turkey who wanted to see Assad's regime overthrown, ammunition, supplies and fighters from across the world came via Turkey's border areas with Syria. Injured fighters would receive treatment in Turkish hospitals. Only now is Turkey and the west becoming very concerned about the enemy it has supported. The Turkish population is also polarised regards support of ISIS, and farmers by the border run an illegal fuel trade to ISIS in Syria still, despite recent pressure on Turkey to control its borders with Syria - a 913 km long front! As the Turks were sympathetic and supportive of the Syrian opposition to President Assad, refugee camps have been established in SE Turkey and the opposition ISIS fighters often regroup in SE Turkey in towns such as Antakya (NOT ANTALYA) as there is virtually free movement between the 2 countries. The Turkish Govt have very recently constructed a 5km long wall so that access from Syria to Antakya is much tougher, though all in reality that will do is push the border sensitivity eastward a few miles.

Some ISIS fighters as we all know, include young men who have flown from the west including the UK, and it is suspected these men are responsible for the recent execution of the US journalist.

A fellow US journalist recently released, was apparently kidnapped in Antakya in Turkey before being taken into Syria. Scary stuff.

The situation is complex and fluid with many different groups & factions, but I thought it would be worth at least highlighting just how dangerous it potentially could be for birders at present, especially for those who stray south of Birecik into border areas in search of rare desert species. (Birecik lies between Gaziantep and Sanliurfa (Urfa) on the attached map). I have read one report that undertook such a trip recently to see See-see Partridge and Pale Rock Sparrow. Birecik itself may be unsafe, if they want to kidnap a westerner, Birecik would be the ideal place I would have thought?

The situation has changed simply because of the strength and growth of ISIS in the border areas.

I am no expert, merely trying to the interpret a situation that I probably do not really fully understand. But it is worthy of discussion in my opinion, single westerners especially (as I was this spring), could make perfect kidnapping targets!

However, I would have thought that within its own country, it would not be in its own interest to encourage or allow this, as it could certainly affect its tourist trade much further west in Southern Turkey. Pressure on Turkey has certainly been ramped up in recent days, but it is questionable just how and whether Turkey will be able to control the situation now it has almost got out of hand.

I would be interested in the views of those who better understand the complex situation than me.

 

[Jos Stratford]

... Islamic Front (IS/ISIS/ISIL) ...were previously supported to some degree by the west and Turkey ... & this has resulted in them making unprecedented gains, partly controlling the border between Turkey and Syria on the Syrian side...

Do not mix IS/ISIS and the Syrian Free Army, the latter certainly has been supported by Turkey and the West to varying degrees, but the Syrian Free Army is not an Islamic extremist group ... other than their incompetence, lack of organisation and failure to unite, there was no significant reason to for concerns of support for this group. However, is there evidence that directly links western support to ISIS and the gains they have made in Syria in recent months, or even illustrates that western support is going to this group.

Though links are alleged between Turkey and ISIS, I think much of your text regarding Turkish assistance reflects a truer reflection of their stance to the S.F.A.

A fellow US journalist recently released, was actually kidnapped in Antakya in Turkey before being taken into Syria. Scary stuff.

He was not held by ISIS. And it seems to be a question of some confusion as to where he was actually kidnappped - unless he has given his account in the last days, most news authorities suggest he was kidnapped in northern Syria or 'possibly' taken across the border from Turkey.



As for Birecek, I guess there is a certain risk, but in the absence of any similar incidents so far (except possibly this journalist as another locality), I'd wager it worth the risk.

A rather sick bet, but I'd put a few pounds on an ISIS-inspired incident having consequences on UK nationals in a UK city before any foreigner gets affected in Birecek.

 

[wolfbirder]

Thanks for your input Jos, I hoped you would contribute as I know your understanding is far deeper than mine.

As far as I can see (bearing in mind I only see western media biase) he was kidnapped in 2012 by a wing of Al Qaida, who themselves are direct rivals to IS. Although direct rivals (whatever rivals means), I presume that both are very anti-west - a stance I do understand because of "the West's" meddling in complex middle-eastern affairs.

I understand the SFA (Syrian Freedom Army) are also fighting the Syrian Govt and also fighting IS, but this is where I find the situation incredibly complex.

I understand what you say about the relative risk Jos, and the last thing I need or want to do is unfairly diss Turkey, but do you think the IS might pick up on these "easy-pickings" western birders standing out like a sore thumb? Their presence in the area is what promoted my question, this is a recent development as far as I can see, the PKK risk as you advised me, had been there for some years (and a risk that did not unduly concerned once you had explained that to me & I did further research).

 

[Jos Stratford]

... do you think the IS might pick up on these "easy-pickings" western birders standing out like a sore thumb?

I am no expert on IS, but the reality is we have no idea - it has not happened yet, and I think currently the chances are relatively small. But as for tomorrow, Al Shabaab has done so from its Somali stronghold, taking westerners from the north Kenya coast, so perhaps IS could do so in Turkey. But, for all the fluidity of movement across it, the Turkish border is better controlled than the Kenya-Somali border.

 

[jurek]

In any case, early June it was safe, and I met several other birding groups.

 

[wolfbirder]

I think it probably still is, but common sense more than ever maybe applicable, and not to stray to remote border areas.

I too was fine in Gaziantep and Birecik, and going to Estagfirullah (Sanliurfa area) was also fine. That was May this year.

 

[sharifaone]

Hi all,
this might be irrelevant, as the posting/question is a bit old. But I was just in Birecik last week, and Birecik is fine! I was there in late May of this year and then again last week. And I was birding as a female on her own, with no problems at all. Yes, all the sites are accessible. It's a quite little town (except when there's a football match on TV!), and OK with the random birder coming through. Honestly, the media is making southern Turkey out worse than it is. I birded all over the region last week, right near the borders, and there is ZERO police presence/security forces to be seen. I've birded southern and eastern Turkey before, so I'm familiar with police checks and security, and there was none to be seen. So, while yes, it does pay to be cautious, the local police (or whatever the name is for those forces) aren't seeming too worried about the situation.

And the lovely birds that Birecik is famous for are still there!

 

[wolfbirder]

Hi all,
this might be irrelevant, as the posting/question is a bit old. But I was just in Birecik last week, and Birecik is fine! I was there in late May of this year and then again last week. And I was birding as a female on her own, with no problems at all. Yes, all the sites are accessible. It's a quite little town (except when there's a football match on TV!), and OK with the random birder coming through. Honestly, the media is making southern Turkey out worse than it is. I birded all over the region last week, right near the borders, and there is ZERO police presence/security forces to be seen. I've birded southern and eastern Turkey before, so I'm familiar with police checks and security, and there was none to be seen. So, while yes, it does pay to be cautious, the local police (or whatever the name is for those forces) aren't seeming too worried about the situation.

And the lovely birds that Birecik is famous for are still there!

That's great to hear, thanks for the feedback.:t:

 

[Jos Stratford]

That's great to hear, thanks for the feedback.:t:

It is also, in my humble opinion, completely rubbish.


"I was just in Birecik last week, and Birecik is fine!"

There have been serious security issues on the Turkish side of the border several times in this last summer, including the July bombing of Suruç by IS killing over 30 people - this was only 40 km from Birecek. Also remember Ankara was hit too in October by IS action killing over 100 - the border is a fluid zone and persons are regularly crossing it, clearly including IS sympathizers. Birecek is 10 km from the Syrian border ...want to take the risk of being caught and transported over the border? Just to emphasize what happens to any westerner who is unlucky enough to end up in IS hands, a Norwegian and Chinese national were beheaded today in Syria.

Yes, chances are nothing will happen on any particular visit to Birecek or any other sites near the border, but to be fed the line that all is okay is simply off the mark.


"I birded all over the region last week, right near the borders, and there is ZERO police presence/security forces to be seen"

Even less reason to go!


.

 

[Jon Turner]

And the Foreign Office advice is currently to avoid the Syrian Border and to avoid all but essential travel to the surrounding areas. There has been a bomb in one of the towns (Degubayazit) since we visited in May - and that was a long way from the border. Even in May they said (I didn't check) that our insurance could be invalid if we had a problem there going against their advice.

 

[Jeff Hopkins]

OOC, any thoughts on Adana?

I'm planning a trip to Armenia and Georgia in May and I'm debating dealing with the hassle of getting an Azerbaijan visa for a few days in Baku or going to Adana for a couple extra species including the snowcock.

 

[Jeff Hopkins]

OOC, any thoughts on Adana?

I'm planning a trip to Armenia and Georgia in May and I'm debating dealing with the hassle of getting an Azerbaijan visa for a few days in Baku or going to Adana for a couple extra species including the snowcock.

Question withdrawn...got all the papers together and applied for the Azeri visa today.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Question withdrawn...got all the papers together and applied for the Azeri visa today.

In reality the question could not be answered anyhow ...it is further from the border than Birecek and, as a consequence, could be regarded as safer, but I would not like to be the person that advises it safe or not safe. Chances of something happening in that particular town on the particular days that you had planned to visit have to be regarded as small, but I would also concede this as being true for Birecek too on any particular day. For Birecek in particular though, I think it was a little irresponsible for the earlier poster to come online and post 'it is fine, it is okay for birder to visit', etc.

PS Azerbaijan sounds a far more exciting destination anyhow :t:

 

[Andy Adcock]

Question withdrawn...got all the papers together and applied for the Azeri visa today.

Let us know how you go Jeff,
maybe doing a bit of this area in spring, mainly Georgia but would like to visit Azerbaijan and Armenia if at all practical..

The lack of police mentioned by Sharifaone is probably a bit concerning to someone a bit paler than an Iraqi?
To be clear, no racist intention, I mean than someone whose obviously a Westerner, will be under a potentially greater threat of e.g kidnap than a Middle-Easterner.

My Missus always says they'd let me go double quick, they'd get sick of my moaning!

What else can be seen at Birecik apart from the 'untickable' Ibis?



Andy

 

[Jeff Hopkins]

In reality the question could not be answered anyhow ...it is further from the border than Birecek and, as a consequence, could be regarded as safer, but I would not like to be the person that advises it safe or not safe. Chances of something happening in that particular town on the particular days that you had planned to visit have to be regarded as small, but I would also concede this as being true for Birecek too on any particular day. For Birecek in particular though, I think it was a little irresponsible for the earlier poster to come online and post 'it is fine, it is okay for birder to visit', etc.

PS Azerbaijan sounds a far more exciting destination anyhow :t:

I know it's subjective. I just was hoping that someone would help me stop dithering on the choice.

As it turns out, it was the hotel in Baku that did that for me. Once I had their confirmation letter, it was just another visa application (and I do those all the time). The only thing that was different was that they wanted to know every country that you've obtained a visa for in the past 5 years. That was a "not-insignificant" list (about 10 countries).

Of course, it's not as long a list as required to get Homeland Security's "Trusted Traveller" clearance. They wanted to know every country I've been to in the last 10 years. Now that was a list!

And given today's news, who knows whether two days in Istanbul will be OK or whether Putin will be bombing it by then. :smoke:

 

[dantheman]

What else can be seen at Birecik apart from the 'untickable' Ibis?



Andy

Lots!

Some highlights from a visit in May 2011 -

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=2152845&highlight=birecik#post2152845

There are other locations in the area which others have found good, but a nice variety of habitat in/next to town make this a bit special. Hopefully not too developed since. And only hoping the whole sorry political 'situation' in the region gets resolved safely for all concerned eventually.

 

[Jeff Hopkins]

Just a follow-up on the Azeri visa for those interested. I now have my visa in hand.

On the application, they asked for my arrival and departure dates. I had a hotel booking showing those exact dates (basically a four day stay). I expected a Soviet style visa good for exactly what I told them.

But they gave me a single-entry visa good for a 30-day stay, which becomes valid the day before my planned arrival. So it is a lot more flexible than I was led to believe.

 

[ekopa]

Just a follow-up on the Azeri visa for those interested. I now have my visa in hand.

On the application, they asked for my arrival and departure dates. I had a hotel booking showing those exact dates (basically a four day stay). I expected a Soviet style visa good for exactly what I told them.

But they gave me a single-entry visa good for a 30-day stay, which becomes valid the day before my planned arrival. So it is a lot more flexible than I was led to believe.

I visited Azerbaijan two times, one of it is in May. Happy to help if need. I also have a good local contact
Alexey

 

[Jeff Hopkins]

Thanks, ekopa.

And regarding the Azeri visa, what was really bizarre was that the Azeri Embassy actually sent me a Christmas card. I've never had that happen before!