A little Kamakura anecdote... (2 Viewers)

[Gijs van Ginkel]

sebzwo, post 40,
I have never seen a trace of Swarovski instruments made by Meopta, not when I visited Swarovski and not when I visited Meopta. At Meopta we saw examples of Zeiss and Leica telescopes made for these companies by Meopta.So I am curious what information you have to show that Swarovski outsourced their spotting scopes to Meopta, since I do not believe your statement at all unless you have convincing evidence.
Gijs van Ginkel

 

[Sebzwo]

Unfortunately I don't remember where it came from. From some forum for sure. I remember it sounded like "credible" information however from back then. It was claiming like all scopes from both Swaro and Zeiss are made by Meopta.

 

[Gijs van Ginkel]

Sebzwp, post 42,
Delete that source since it is simply wrong.
Gijs van Ginkel

 

[Troubador]

I'm not sure if anyone can answer that - I certainly can't. But I trust that the SFs are mostly made in Germany, and I suspect a good portion of the parts (Schott glass, body, focuser probably) will be German made. But the exact details don't matter, too much. What really matters if if you still trust Zeiss to deliver a high quality product at a fair price. If they determine that they can make a better product by outsourcing some parts, that is ok with me. If they determine that they can make just as good a product if they outsource some parts, that's still fine. And it doesn't matter if the outsourced parts are German, Japanese, Chinese, or Congolese to me (aside from any human rights issues). A manufacturer can just as well fight too hard to keep everything in house and end up making a product that is too expensive to sell, or miss out on better parts due to their lack of in house ability. And if the quality of someone's product slips, it doesn't matter too much where it was made.

I do agree with you that labelling the Trinovids and Conquests as "Made in Germany / Portugal" is misleading.

For a long time you only had to do "final assembly" in the US to label something "made in the USA" and I recall from the 80's or perhaps early 90's a bunch of news stories of finished goods being imported (garments, tools, etc) and a tag being sewn in or a handle being screwed on or something to qualify as "made in USA." Now there are "made in USA" requirements that something be made in the USA from all or nearly all US sourced components. But there are "built in USA" and "assembled in USA" and other labels and I get gray on what the details are.

The US is full of products that are labelled "0 grams sugar*" and "0 grams trans fats*" and when you look at the * it is per serving, and the products frequently contain just under 1/2 gram of sugar or trans fats per serving, in order to be rounded down to 0.

This discussion reminds me of this cartoon: https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free.png

Local Government guidance in one part of Germany on labelling 'Made in Germany':

Requirements for „made in Germany“ A product “Made in Germany” must fulfil the following requirements:

Those services and components which are crucial to the quality and valuation of the goods must have been performed or manufactured in Germany.

The description “Made in Germany” is not justified by simply assembling parts that have been prefabricated abroad, carrying out a final inspection or labelling the goods in Germany.

On the other hand, some parts or components of an indus-trial product may certainly be supplied from abroad, but the essential parts of the final product must always originate in Germany.

A significant refinement may justify the description “Made in Germany”, but here too the above statement still applies: the refinement must be crucial to the quality and valuation of the product.
​

From: http://www.parchim-airport.com/upfiles/Guide to Made in Germany by IHK.pdf


Lee

 

[fazalmajid]

they will not make the glass but will buy it from suppliers like O'Hara and Schott

Ohara, not O'Hara. Japanese, not Irish...

Schott is a sister company of Zeiss, both owned by the non-profit Carl Zeiss Stiftung established by Ernst Abbe, so you could argue it is "in-house".

In the watchmaking industry, a mechanical movement is known as an ébauche (draft) and is usually offered in up to 4 grades of finish (standard, élaboré, top and chronometer). Perhaps the contract optics has something similar.

 

[Sebzwo]

Here is a source that claims the Zeiss Gavia spotting scope is made in Japan. I don't think it is the one I meant but the only one I found now.
https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/zeiss-conquest-gavia-spotting-scope-opinions-wanted.93081/
Obviously some earlier Zeiss Conquest rifle scopes were outsources as well.

 

[jan van daalen]

Here is a source that claims the Zeiss Gavia spotting scope is made in Japan. I don't think it is the one I meant but the only one I found now.
https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/zeiss-conquest-gavia-spotting-scope-opinions-wanted.93081/
Obviously some earlier Zeiss Conquest rifle scopes were outsources as well.

It is no secret at all that the Gavia is made by Kamakura Japan, just like her sistermodel branded Vortex and as I presume more brands.
Even the Harpia is partly made in the Far East. The complete ocular is made in Taiwan, something Zeiss doesn't hide in any way.

Jan

 

[lmans66]

So are we arriving at any conclusion? ....many bins and scopes made under the Kamakura umbrella and they are considered top notch. Any such 'top notch' yet from China alone or, as we have talked about in other forums, it isn't a matter that they can't make quality, just that the demands instilled upon binocular and scope companies are not as high in China products as they are in those made in Japan?

 

[eitanaltman]

So are we arriving at any conclusion? ....many bins and scopes made under the Kamakura umbrella and they are considered top notch. Any such 'top notch' yet from China alone or, as we have talked about in other forums, it isn't a matter that they can't make quality, just that the demands instilled upon binocular and scope companies are not as high in China products as they are in those made in Japan?

Vortex shifted production of the Razor HD and Viper HD lines to China and they are still fine instruments. There of course many other cheap China ED bins out there under various labels (Athlon, Carson, and some bigger names like Celestron) of varying levels of quality. The optics seem to be less criticized than the build quality / mechanicals and sample variation.

I also think as some have noted that there are different levels of “made by Kamakura”. A company like Tract or Maven doesn’t have production facilities, as I noted in the start of this thread they even outsource the repairs to Kamakura. So likely Kamakura is producing 100% of these binoculars to the spec of the brand. But because the Tract/Maven guys are industry pros, they know how to leverage Kamakura to achieve a much higher level of optical quality worthy of the price point vs a $200-300 product. Some of it I’m sure is just paying more money for higher quality glass and coatings available on Kamakura’s “menu” of parts.

But with something like the Trinovid HD or Conquest HD and the “made in Germany/Portugal” label... Leica certainly has full production facilities in the EU, perhaps they subcontract the glass and basic housing to keep costs down and then take the “raw” binoculars and do the rest in house in Portugal, such as apply their proprietary coatings, test components to ensure tight tolerances and quality standards, final assembly, armor, eyecups etc?

 

[lmans66]

Vortex shifted production of the Razor HD and Viper HD lines to China and they are still fine instruments. There of course many other cheap China ED bins out there under various labels (Athlon, Carson, and some bigger names like Celestron) of varying levels of quality. The optics seem to be less criticized than the build quality / mechanicals and sample variation.

I also think as some have noted that there are different levels of “made by Kamakura”. A company like Tract or Maven doesn’t have production facilities, as I noted in the start of this thread they even outsource the repairs to Kamakura. So likely Kamakura is producing 100% of these binoculars to the spec of the brand. But because the Tract/Maven guys are industry pros, they know how to leverage Kamakura to achieve a much higher level of optical quality worthy of the price point vs a $200-300 product. Some of it I’m sure is just paying more money for higher quality glass and coatings available on Kamakura’s “menu” of parts.

But with something like the Trinovid HD or Conquest HD and the “made in Germany/Portugal” label... Leica certainly has full production facilities in the EU, perhaps they subcontract the glass and basic housing to keep costs down and then take the “raw” binoculars and do the rest in house in Portugal, such as apply their proprietary coatings, test components to ensure tight tolerances and quality standards, final assembly, armor, eyecups etc?

From what I understand about Maven, they actual assemble everything in California, much like Leica might do in Europe.

 

[Troubador]

Ohara, not O'Hara. Japanese, not Irish...

Schott is a sister company of Zeiss, both owned by the non-profit Carl Zeiss Stiftung established by Ernst Abbe, so you could argue it is "in-house".

In the watchmaking industry, a mechanical movement is known as an ébauche (draft) and is usually offered in up to 4 grades of finish (standard, élaboré, top and chronometer). Perhaps the contract optics has something similar.

Thanks for the Ohara correction. As for Schott, my post was replying to one about Kamakura so wasn't including Zeiss in its remit. And Schott operates as an independent company as does Zeiss Sports Optics. Schott is by no means guaranteed to get all Sports Optic's business, so from that point of view Zeiss do not operate as one company.

Your example from the watchmaking industry is a good one and I am sure this principal or something similar applies, with different levels of lens finish, different levels of tolerances etc being available for different prices.

Lee

 

[18000bph]

From what I understand about Maven, they actual assemble everything in California, much like Leica might do in Europe.

One thing that leads me to believe Maven is capable of significant assembly in the US is the level of customization offered. It seems less likely that a high volume asian contractor wouldn't be willing to install special color focus wheels, ocular rings, etc in a timely enough manner to fulfill one-off orders.

 

[Troubador]

From what I understand about Maven, they actual assemble everything in California, much like Leica might do in Europe.

Take a look at the guidelines about 'made in Germany' that I posted above and these specifically state it is not enough to simply assemble all the components in Germany to qualify for made in Germany. I suspect this applies to all EU countries so would include Portugal. The guidance says you need to do something that goes to the heart of how the product functions, or at least that is how interpret it. So one thing Leica and Zeiss could do would be to apply their anti-reflection coatings, which would not only be a process that fundamentally affects the performance of the product, this would avoid the need to licence the coatings to the manufacturer of the lenses and prisms and also make it possible to upgrade the coatings without giving away the details of the upgrade. This is pure speculation on my part, I have no inside info on this.

Lee

 

[garymh]

The guidance says you need to do something that goes to the heart of how the product functions, or at least that is how interpret it.

Lee

I think it is all down to interpretation of the laws.

By assembling a number of components into a working product then surely you have "gone to the heart of how the product functions"

Gary.

 

[jan van daalen]

Since this is the Kamakura anecdote thread.....
At the time the Conquest hit the market, one of the topdogs of Zeiss Sport Optics told me that they had given the Japanese OEM (he refused to give the name) its coating formula under the restriction it was exclusive for the Conquest.
Not long after that, during a dinner, the owner of a European optics brand told me that his latest top line had the same coatings as the Conquests had. Those bins were made by Kamakura.
Not long after that I spoke to the Zeiss rep again and asked him if Zeiss wasn't afraid that their knowledge could be used on competitors bins.
His final answer was that this was considered as a trade off. Winning by cutting costs this way means accepting the risk of loosing somewhere else.

Jan

 

[Troubador]

I think it is all down to interpretation of the laws.

By assembling a number of components into a working product then surely you have "gone to the heart of how the product functions"

Gary.

I know what you mean Gary but this paragraph doesn't appear to leave open your interpretation:

"The description “Made in Germany” is not justified by simply assembling parts that have been prefabricated abroad, carrying out a final inspection or labelling the goods in Germany".​

And if assembling the entire parts list into a product doesn't satisfy the rules then it doesn't seem likely that the adding of one component, for example the eyecups, would qualify either. This was a rumoured solution on the internet at one point.

Lee

 

[Steve C]

Maven binoculars, the B series anyway, are assembled in San Diego, at the Kama Tech facility (which may be the case with other brands too), which is a Kamakura company. So some, most, or all of the final finish work is done there. I don't know how much. Kama Tech does do the customizations as ordered and that is where warranty repair work is done.

 

[lmans66]

As Lee and others have stated, not all components come from that particular country and in a global marketplace as we have, chances are they cannot all come from 'that particular country'. So on Meopta brands it states 'Made in Czech' or Zeiss states 'made in Germany' but are all components made in Germany or Czech?

I actually prefer what Maven states as they state in their literature 'Assembled in USA"... Then you look at their product line and can assume what comes from Japan or what comes from China in their case if you can discern that. That is honestly promoting your product.

 

[NDhunter]

Maven binoculars, the B series anyway, are assembled in San Diego, at the Kama Tech facility (which may be the case with other brands too), which is a Kamakura company. So some, most, or all of the final finish work is done there. I don't know how much. Kama Tech does do the customizations as ordered and that is where warranty repair work is done.

Steve: Thanks for posting that, it makes sense with the customization options available. Do you know if they can replace lenses and collimate ? That is what a complete service center does.

Jerry

 

[Steve C]

Steve: Thanks for posting that, it makes sense with the customization options available. Do you know if they can replace lenses and collimate ? That is what a complete service center does.

Jerry

Jerry,

Yes they can do anything needed. I think there was likely some shipping savings as separate boxes of binocular parts probably pack to take less space than assembled binoculars. The binoculars are assembled from the shipped collection of parts, so they have to be collimated in the process. There are always some mostly assembled B series binoculars sitting around to be given the customised touches required by an order. The services at Maven in Wyoming are more basic. Things can be checked there, but serious service work goes to San Diego.