10x Promaster and Frontier (1 Viewer)

[Tero]

There may be some quality issues with the Pentax 10x, I have seen two store units, and one was better than the other. I sort of prefer the Pentax to Viper at 10x, at 8x I do not see much difference.

 

[Kevin Purcell]

Well, it was pretty much what I expected to hear. I do not expect them to beat the Pentax ED 10x at twice the price, but may be very close, closer than to the Leica.

You should try a set of Promasters, Tero.

My experience is that they will beat the Pentax EDs unless the Pentax EDs are really, really good. And given where they seem to rank I suspect they may be below the EDs. Though I'd love to see a head to head evaluation of these (armchair speculation is easy!).

Thanks for the write up, DHB, despite the weather and the time of year (I though that might have something to do with it!). If you get a chance for a closer apprasal (especially when activley birding) I'd be interested to hear it.

I can also see your point about the focus: the PMs do seem to need the right focus but when the 8x PMs are on focus they are very sharp. I can imagine the 10x depth of field/depth of focus is smaller so they need to be even more on the dot. I wonder if this drove the choice of gear ratio for the focus control? Faster focus would be nicer for general use but would it end up being so fiddly as to be annoying (especially with an imprefections like backlash ... I don't detect any but I could imagine that being a limiting factor). Just another of the many bin design choices.

 

[Steve C]

You should try a set of Promasters, Tero.

I can also see your point about the focus: the PMs do seem to need the right focus but when the 8x PMs are on focus they are very sharp. I can imagine the 10x depth of field/depth of focus is smaller so they need to be even more on the dot. I wonder if this drove the choice of gear ratio for the focus control? Faster focus would be nicer for general use but would it end up being so fiddly as to be annoying (especially with an imprefections like backlash ... I don't detect any but I could imagine that being a limiting factor). Just another of the many bin design choices.

Tero
Kevin is right, you need to try a set of Promasters. Seems like you have hundreds of posts going through binoculars looking for the ultimate low cost, good binocular. When it shows up in plain sight in the form of the Promaster, you give it the cold shoulder. Not complaining or flaming, but an observation. Lord knows I went through more than my fair share of "optical stuff", so that's common to lots of us. I'd be interested in your opinion of them. It seems to me to be the ideal one choice binocular for the serious user with some budget constraints.

While the Promaster does require some fiddling (for lack of a better term) to get the diopter adjustment right the first time, I have yet to have to fiddle at all with mine outside the initial set up. It does not have the annoying "diopter drift" sometimes seen on "almost there" value price binoculars.

 

[Tero]

Well, I was taken off track by the Viper opportunity. So now I have my usual dilemma, if I get the 8x ProMaster, I have to get rid of the Viper, they will be useless. They actually are very similar to SP level Pentax.

But the 10x ProMater is in the plans all along. Somebody buy my scope please! Need funds.

More at binocular ramblings thread.

 

[FrankD]

Hmm, interesting but not surprising. I found much the same thing with the 10x and 8x Vortex Razors. I loved the 8x version but was less than thrilled with the 10x. I wonder if this is a question of needing tighter manufacturing tolerances for the higher magnification or just that the 8x42 versions of these binoculars are more "optimized and tweeked" for overall performance.

 

[DHB]

Frank - I'm sure your correct plus the fact that any minor inferiorities are more evident when magnafied by 10.

 

[DHB]

I mentioned this before and am still wondering.

What if Promaster decides two years from now to drop there ELX (top end ED glass bino) and after this mine takes on water. I have limited experience to draw from. What do you think would happen? Promaster says "so sorry" or ????

 

[Steve C]

Dave,

I suppose we all wonder about the warranty on things we buy with sometimes hard to come by cash. That is certainly a draw for me to Leupold and Vortex. On the other hand, I'm a certified cheapskate as well. When I saw the sort of optical quality I could get for the price of a Promaster, that pretty well decided me. I will use it somewhat judiciously. Also I tend not to have a personal history with binocular failure. Except for that time I managed to run over my cased Monarchs....|=). |I also decided that even if Promaster was not able to make a long term run with that technology, somebody else (Vortex, Leupold, or whoever) would. Anyway I decided on mine on an optics quality/price value basis. I guess time will tell the tale. As a benefit, I've looked at a lot of different binoculars in comparison to that Promaster that I likely would not have looked at without having bought it. So I guess that has some value as well.

 

[DHB]

Steve - My decision process and past experience mirrors yours. I just sold my 8.5ELs but will keep my Leica Trinovid 10x42.

 

[Kevin Purcell]

I mentioned this before and am still wondering.

What if Promaster decides two years from now to drop there ELX (top end ED glass bino) and after this mine takes on water. I have limited experience to draw from. What do you think would happen? Promaster says "so sorry" or ????

I think this is other side of the Promaster argument.

The optics are very, very good. And the brand will be around too I suspect. They're rebranders, bying stuff from ODMs, so unless the financial crunch takes them out.

But their optics have been a crap shoot in the past. I've tried two generations of them. And there's no guarantee that they'll have good models in the future. They could have just got lucky with a good Chinese ODM turning out a excellent bin rather than having "great taste". But that may be the wave of the future so good Chinese bins may be plentiful in the future. Or not.

The price trade-off is significant. If they last 5 years then that's about the same yearly cost as 17 year old Zeiss (or a 20 year old Swaro) though even at the end of 20 years the Zeiss and Swaro still has some asset value. That said so long as they don't break (or fog) the optics will still be as good so the PMs should have some value.

In fact even with the top end makers you don't know if their going to be around in 5 years (of the four I'd put my money on Nikon though they may be around but out of the sport optics business).

Who knows in 10 years we may all be using porros again

 

[FrankD]

What if Promaster decides two years from now to drop there ELX (top end ED glass bino) and after this mine takes on water. I have limited experience to draw from. What do you think would happen? Promaster says "so sorry" or ????

Good point. I look at this issue from two perspectives. One, even if they drop the ELX I have a feeling they will honor whatever warranty issues arise. If not, and you bought the glass from Doug at CLNY, then I have a feeling he would do his best to make the issue right for you.

Two, not to sound negative, but if the binoculars did crap out in a few years then I wouldn't be too upset as you only paid 1/5th the price of the current Ultravids or ELs....

 

[Tero]

As I alluded to in some other thread, I will probably not find out if the Pentax ED 10x43, now selling for over 1000, is better. I suspect these two will be very similar.

I started of actually with Nikon Sporter 10x36 (dim), then Nikon Monarch 10x42, then Zeiss Conquest 10x40. Somehow I never could get used to the Zeiss, I used the Monarchs.

Then I had the Monarchs and the Pentax. The Pentax SP in fact was not sharper in the middle, much the same. Overall it beat the Monarchs. I may still use them, they have a good warranty.

So here I am with the Promaster 10x. It is better than the Pentax. I had some dipter issues...I have those with nearly all 10x models...but settled on a setting with the Pentax. I am comfortable with them. With Promaster I did not even need to mess with the diopter. Close to zero does it.

The Promaster are bright. I have no issues with them so far. Eye cups are solid. I can get a tiny bit of blackouts if I try hard. There is some stray light. Don't look at light bulbs and suns. CA is minimal.

I followed a couple of bald eagles over the river. One was pretty close. I kept up with them, not needing to refocus until it was over the river and small.

They seem solid enough. Leather case. Strap is on the wimpy side...not the most elegant looking, I may change that.

Brightness: I could not decide that they were brighter than the Pentax. They were not dimmer either.

I may be happy withe these for quite a while. I think there is really nothing under 1000 dollars that can beat these. Pentax ED maybe. Minox maybe. Meopta?
http://www.eagleoptics.com/binoculars/meopta/meopta-meostar-10x42-binocular

 

[FrankD]

Nice review Tero. I am glad to see that the optical impressiveness maintained itself with the 10x model. I was afraid it was not going to be as good as the 8x in comparison to its competitors.

 

[Tero]

I had some time for field testing, and 10 year birds, including a barred owl.

Focus knob on Promaster is a bit stiff in cold weather. I had the Pentax 10x43 SP to compare. Very similar in many respects. If I have to send either for repair, I can easily switch back and forth between these two. Brightness was about the same on the cloudy day. The bright yellow spot on a Gold Crowned Kinglet was bright on either.

I had no problem carrying around the neck 1-2 h with the strap it came with. It hangs niceley, straps attach to sides as they should. I never had to readjust the diopter, never touched it. I have problems like that usually.

The sun was not in sight, so nor real stray light today.

 

[FrankD]

Hmm, your comment about the stiffness of the focuser in cold weather has me curious. I noticed much the same about the Zen Ray. I wonder if this is an issue with this particular design or if it is just sample variation.

 

[Tero]

Today was better, about 25-30 degrees, I located a Northern Shrike, a lifer, twice with it. But it was so far away I could see no detail, so had to use a scope at 45x to make the final ID.

I am quite used to it now. I seem to forget I am using it, I think I am still using the Pentax SP. That might indicate the Pentax, not ED glass, is essentially the same for birding in the field.

The same thing would happen if I used the top of the line alphas, though I think in poor light there might be some advantage. But I would look at birds, not make note of the optics.

 

[FrankD]

I just focused my attention on the focusing mechanism of the Zen Ray before logging on to the computer. My particular unit has loosened up nicely through regular use. At this point I cannot really tell a difference between it and most of my other bins.

 

[falcondude]

I think Zen-Ray's extra large focus knob may take a few minutes to get used to it if you are used to smaller focus knob. My focusing knob is silky smooth. The large knob is actually more comfortable to adjust.

 

[Kevin Purcell]

I just focused my attention on the focusing mechanism of the Zen Ray before logging on to the computer. My particular unit has loosened up nicely through regular use. At this point I cannot really tell a difference between it and most of my other bins.

I agree with this too. I'm tracking the new 8x unit for this but I noticed the 10x I had (as I mentioned in the review) started off with a "problem" which disappeared and the mechanism seemed to loosen up.

I do wonder how well they will work in the cold. I notice my one stiffening a little when birding with a bin packed in a bag at 70F indoors then taken out later and cooling to 40F as I used it.

 

[Tero]

40 degrees does very little to these lubricants
they get stiff at 20-30, closer to 20