Snipe and Dove from Mongolia (2 Viewers)

[Liebzi]

Hi all, I have found a few bird photos in the archives from a birding trip to Mongolia in autumn 2019. Will apprecaite some second opinions on these 2 birds.

Photo 180722971: Swinhoe vs Pintailed Snipe. I identified it as a Swinhoe's back in the days, but I'm unsure if you really can tell from this unsharp photo of the spread tail. Can't really tell the width of the outer tail feathers.

Photo 180730311. Hill Pigeon or Rock Dove. I feel like it looks pretty good for Hill with overall looks, but I feel annoyted that it seems the upper parts of the tail feathers dosen't show black. Making me feel like it could just be a weird rock Dove, it was also amongst just feral pigeons.

 

[Bewick]

They're just manky, feral pigeons I'd say.

Does Jack Snipe occur there, seems to have the bold 'braces' of that species.

Rocks/ferals and hills associate- honestly I'd be more inclined to id it as a hill pigeon. Cannot find example of such a pure looking feral with such a pale tail feathers. I'm wondering if the greyish uppertail is just obscured by the wings shadow.

Edit- Can feral x hill hybrids show a palish tail band, that could confuse things more. The only paper I can find shows a bird with a greyish tail.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Sorry Bewick, I deleted that, not sure of my facts here, that was a trigger reaction.

 

[Bewick]

Sorry Bewick, I deleted that, not sure of my facts here, that was a trigger reaction.

Your opinion is just as reasonable as mine. Feral's can have so much variation that it makes it difficult, however I've watched videos that have described the pale tail band as the most acceptable way to separate the two species. I cannot really tell whether it's just an extremely pale feral pigeon, a non-distinct hill x feral hybird or a hill pigeon because the greyish on the uppertail is not visible.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Your opinion is just as reasonable as mine. Feral's can have so much variation that it makes it difficult, however I've watched videos that have described the pale tail band as the most acceptable way to separate the two species. I cannot really tell whether it's just an extremely pale feral pigeon, a non-distinct hill x feral hybird or a hill pigeon because the greyish on the uppertail is not visible.

I'd say that if it's with feral pigs as described, there a good chance it's a hybrid?

 

[Bewick]

I'd say that if it's with feral pigs as described, there a good chance it's a hybrid?

Not sure, the only studies I can find on crossbreeding between hill pigeons and feral pigeons are from South Korea. Seems as if hybridisation is not massively high in their populations (study found that hybridisation was lacking in two of the three populations). The low numbers of hill pigeons in SK seem to more the result of other issues.

 

[Liebzi]

Tail looks pretty similar to this individual: ML205764881 - Hill Pigeon - Macaulay Library. Maybe the greish uppertail is not that visible on closed wings and tail?

 

[Liebzi]

And Jack Snipe is pretty rare in west Mongolia with 2 confirmed records

 

[THE_FERN]

I think I agree about the snipe (Swinhoe's): I can't see any evidence of pins in the tail

 

[Liebzi]

Hmm. I have tried sharpening the photo of the tail a bit. I feel it's very hard to get a feeling of the shape and width of the outher onces, seems like they are all together creating that white flash.

 

[johnallcock]

The snipe looks like Swinhoe's to me - quite a lot of white in the outer tail, and there doesn't seem to be an obvious change between the central tail feathers and the narrow pin-like feathers, as you would see on Pintailed.

 

[Liebzi]

I kind of still have mixed fellings of this snipe. IIf all the outher pin-tailed feathers are close together, could they be creating that white feeling that this snipe is showing. Look at this example of a pin-tailed: ML484860771 - Pin-tailed Snipe - Macaulay Library -- I assume that because my photo of the snipe is not sharp enough, it could be that all feathers could create that white feeling of outer tail.

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

Concerning the pigeon, Hill x feral Rock can show a rather broad pale tail area before the dark band, at the base of the feathers there is again a dark band, but i think often less sharply bordered to the pale band than in Hill pigeon, more washed out in a hybrid .
The pale band itself can be visible in hybrids too, as far as I know ...
Hill

http://www.birdskorea.org/Images/images2009/12/Hill-Pigeon_RL-2.jpg

hybrid

https://siberia.russia.birding.day/photos/0708/001/07080007002.jpg

The true pattern is best seen in an a spread tail, mostly not visible in a perched bird .

Here are several birds supposed to be hybrids

Hybrid Pigeon (Columba (livia x rupestris)). Photo Gallery.Birds of Siberia.

Hybrid Pigeon (Columba (livia x rupestris)). . The Main Site of Birdwatchers of Siberia, the largest database of photos of birds of Siberia. Communication center of birdwatchers of Siberia. Description, distribution, maps, biology of all species of birds of Siberia. Blogs with Photos.

siberia.russia.birding.day

also under Hill pigeon there are some birds that look not typical

Hill Pigeon (Columba rupestris). Photo Gallery.Birds of Siberia.

Hill Pigeon (Columba rupestris). Құз кептері. The Main Site of Birdwatchers of Siberia, the largest database of photos of birds of Siberia. Communication center of birdwatchers of Siberia. Description, distribution, maps, biology of all species of birds of Siberia. Blogs with Photos.

siberia.russia.birding.day

Are there any more photos of the right bird, Liebzi?

 

[Xenospiza]

Hi all, I have found a few bird photos in the archives from a birding trip to Mongolia in autumn 2019. Will apprecaite some second opinions on these 2 birds.

Photo 180730311. Hill Pigeon or Rock Dove. I feel like it looks pretty good for Hill with overall looks, but I feel annoyted that it seems the upper parts of the tail feathers dosen't show black. Making me feel like it could just be a weird rock Dove, it was also amongst just feral pigeons.

Fine for Hill Pigeon, with which it mixes in Mongolia.

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

Fine for Hill Pigeon, with which it mixes in Mongolia.

Agree that it looks good , but is it fully safe to exclude a hybrid ?
Not doubting your ID, but I do not have much experience with the species and Liebzi stated the bird was with feral pigeons, so I am interested to learn ...

 

[Xenospiza]

Agree that it looks good , but is it fully safe to exclude a hybrid ?
Not doubting your ID, but I do not have much experience with the species and Liebzi stated the bird was with feral pigeons, so I am interested to learn ...

I think the demarcation of black and white in the tail is so sharp that Hill is a safe conclusion.

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

But that seems similar also in these birds which seem to be identifird as hybrids:

Hybrid Pigeon (Columba (livia x rupestris)). Birds of Siberia.

Hybrid Pigeon (Columba (livia x rupestris)). Birds of Siberia. author: Igor Dvurekov. date: 2020-11-28. location: .

siberia.russia.birding.day

Hybrid Pigeon (Columba (livia x rupestris)). Birds of Siberia.

Hybrid Pigeon (Columba (livia x rupestris)). Birds of Siberia. author: Igor Fefelov. date: 2020-11-15. location: Irkutsk.

siberia.russia.birding.day

However , the pale areas in the tails may be a bit darker in these birds ...