Petition to AOS Leadership on the Recent Decision to Change all Eponymous Bird Names (8 Viewers)

[raymie]

The amount of people who would be willing to learn scientific names for something that they do for fun cannot be anything that miniscule.

I have no doubt established serious birders will have no trouble learning them - many already know them. But it is a massive barrier for the more casual folks.

 

[Steve Babbs]

I have no doubt established serious birders will have no trouble learning them - many already know them. But it is a massive barrier for the more casual folks.

No trouble? An ageing hobby and many of us hopping from Africa to Asia to the Americas to Europe. That's a lot of names! A fairly wild youth has left this birder without that greatest memory.

 

[Mysticete]

(Most) people are not going back to scientific names. What people will do is that some will use the new names, and some will use the old names. Which honestly happens all the time, even for name changes that are not controversial. I still refer to things like Gray Jays all the time for instance. And yet people know what I am talking about.

 

[temmie]

I'm drifting off-topic a fair bit, but Latin names are usually the following binomial = genus + specific name.
You have a zillion antwrens, but thanks to the Latin genus name, you can distinguish in e.g. Herpsilochmus and Myrmotherula etc, and once you know you have, in a certain region, only one of maybe 2 of each genus as congeners aren't overlapping in range or altitude, it's much easier to get a grip on the birds.
I don't aim for learning all latin names by heart, but for some (especially obscure or hard-to-separate species or e.g. (and this is again more on-topic) non-sensical English names, it helps me quite a lot.

Besides being helpful, some latin names are 'better' than the English (or whatever language) equivalent, e.g. Crested Tit-Warbler is Leptopoecile elegans. Lepto = delicate and poecile = tit. Elegans is self-explaining. So it's a delicate elegant tit. Sounds just as good as the bird looks like

 

[Paul Chapman]

An update straight from the AOS, which specifically brings up the petition and some of the related fallout. So it does seem like the AOS is taking the petition and related criticisms seriously, and not just dismissing it out of hand (which, not going to lie, I was kind of expecting).

AOS Pilot Project to Change Harmful English Common Bird Names - American Ornithological Society

During the past several years, the AOS has been engaged in discussions, forums, and decisions about how best to handle eponymous and other English common bird names that may be perceived as offensive or exclusionary.

americanornithology.org

They have now also provided the first 6 species to get new names as part of a "pilot" project for the effort, which is an interesting phrasing which I feel is ripe for interpretation. Unsurprisingly most of these are what you would call "low-hanging" fruit so to speak

Inca Dove
Maui Parrotbill
Townsend's Warbler
Townsend's Solitaire
Bachman's Sparrow
Scott's Oriole

Many thanks for posting.

I read it mainly to find out whether there was anything persuasive in there that changing the majority of names would improve diversity and engagement. I failed to find anything cogent or persuasive and instead saw a repetition of that opinion as if it were fact.

That said, I have so much subjective overlay on this topic that I may have missed something substantive and I invite any correction.

I was amused to see the reference to Zino's Petrel and this passage:-

"Clearly, the AOS needs to initiate discussions on eponymous English common bird names with our international partners for the species that we share and to determine the best way to engage with the diverse public users of English names throughout the species’ ranges when making any name changes."

I presume the "any name changes" is broad enough wording to allow some names to remain unaltered?

I was also amused to see that a statement and process in which a considerable amount of effort had clearly been spent had a more than 10% error on the species whose ranges were entirely within their ambit by missing Harris's Sparrow. It gave me little confidence in their knowledge and application.

For me, still (largely) a sideshow save for those names that are truly offensive and still as a result (largely) time and effort that should be directed to other causes with more substantive results.

All the best

Paul

 

[Paul Chapman]

I'm drifting off-topic a fair bit, but Latin names are usually the following binomial = genus + specific name.
You have a zillion antwrens, but thanks to the Latin genus name, you can distinguish in e.g. Herpsilochmus and Myrmotherula etc, and once you know you have, in a certain region, only one of maybe 2 of each genus as congeners aren't overlapping in range or altitude, it's much easier to get a grip on the birds.
I don't aim for learning all latin names by heart, but for some (especially obscure or hard-to-separate species or e.g. (and this is again more on-topic) non-sensical English names, it helps me quite a lot.

Besides being helpful, some latin names are 'better' than the English (or whatever language) equivalent, e.g. Crested Tit-Warbler is Leptopoecile elegans. Lepto = delicate and poecile = tit. Elegans is self-explaining. So it's a delicate elegant tit. Sounds just as good as the bird looks like

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

The use of Latin name throughout this post for scientific names is delightfully ironic in light of the topic. It is clearly as inappropriate as Inca Dove and I feel for any Greek readers who may be offended....

😀

All the best

Paul

 

[Jim M.]

And it is my contention that the “ornithological” definition is hard to justify and no amount of inertia means that it is either correct or should be continued.

“We need to rename these birds to promote inclusion in birding but sorry Mexico you are still not part of North America. We’re sure you understand it’s just the way it is as defined by us here in the US and Canada.”

Sounds pretty silly to me.

What you say is not accurate. Mexicans refer to those from the U.S. and Canada as "norteamericanos." So it's not a perspective those north of the border are imposing on them.

Your complaint is more an instance of people who don't live in the western hemisphere trying to tell people who live here how we should refer to our geography; just as this thread is mostly about people who don't live here trying to tell us what bird names to use. Neocolonialism indeed.

 

[temmie]

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

The use of Latin name throughout this post for scientific names is delightfully ironic in light of the topic. It is clearly as inappropriate as Inca Dove and I feel for any Greek readers who may be offended....

😀

All the best

Paul

My opinion: if it works, it works. Nothing really works perfect but I’m always open for improvements, be it a simple rank number (eg lets name barn swallow #1 and house sparrow #11.000 and all others ranked in between), a strong password (let’s name barn swallow = Rz3!$e25%) or a name that tries to describe the bird like red-throated Blue-banded swallow or whatever works.

 

[Paul Chapman]

My opinion: if it works, it works. Nothing really works perfect but I’m always open for improvements, be it a simple rank number (eg lets name barn swallow #1 and house sparrow #11.000 and all others ranked in between), a strong password (let’s name barn swallow = Rz3!$e25%) or a name that tries to describe the bird like red-throated Blue-banded swallow or whatever works.

I think the challenge falls within differing perceptions on whether the status quo works.

All the best

Paul

 

[Xenospiza]

I was amused to see the reference to Zino's Petrel and this passage:-

"Clearly, the AOS needs to initiate discussions on eponymous English common bird names with our international partners for the species that we share and to determine the best way to engage with the diverse public users of English names throughout the species’ ranges when making any name changes."

Without Zino there'd probably be no need for Americans to discuss its name.

 

[Andy Adcock]

I'll keep mentioning this until they get around to kicking me off the forum, but the reality is that birds DO have multiple names and a lot of our anguish here stems from pretending that they don't, and/or pretending that common names should do the job of the scientific names.

One of the potential outcomes of wholesale rapid changes to the common names could be that people toss up their hands and go back to using Latin names as is more common with other taxa. I think this more metered approach (with only six "pilot" species) reduces that chance and I think that is much more welcome. But as you point out, even decrees by committees have not stopped a multitude of English names being used for the same things. That is the nature of language, and whether we like it or not this recent effort is no different.

Not so much in the modern era where most people will be using the same fieldguide for any, given area.

 

[opisska]

Haha, maybe the same guide, but not the same edition ...

I am not kidding, but if you get the latest edition of Czech translation of Collins, the Czech names for McQueen's and Houbara Bustards are now switched around compared to the previous edition, courtesy of the "Czech nomenclature committee".

And you guys are complaining that someone changes your patronyms? Amateurs

 

[Farnboro John]

What you say is not accurate. Mexicans refer to those from the U.S. and Canada as "norteamericanos." So it's not a perspective those north of the border are imposing on them.

Your complaint is more an instance of people who don't live in the western hemisphere trying to tell people who live here how we should refer to our geography; just as this thread is mostly about people who don't live here trying to tell us what bird names to use. Neocolonialism indeed.

Is "gringo" out of fashion then?

There are those in the South of England who believe the North of England starts at Watford (it doesn't, though the Midlands could be argued to start at Watford Gap which is some fifty miles further North) so what Mexicans colloquially call fellow North Americans doesn't really matter. What matters is the reality on the globe which shows Mexico as clearly part of the same big blob as the USA and Canada. The obviously different bit is called South America (where does that leave "the Deep South"?)

Just for a laugh:

North America - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

John

 

[Xenospiza]

There are those in the South of England who believe the North of England starts at Watford (it doesn't, though the Midlands could be argued to start at Watford Gap which is some fifty miles further North) so what Mexicans colloquially call fellow North Americans doesn't really matter. What matters is the reality on the globe which shows Mexico as clearly part of the same big blob as the USA and Canada. The obviously different bit is called South America (where does that leave "the Deep South"?)

My colleagues from northern Italy are adamant that Africa starts somewhere north of Rome, maybe a bit further south if they are broad-minded.

From your wikipedia article:
The United Nations and its statistics division recognize North America as including three regions: Northern America, Central America, and the Caribbean. "Northern America" is a distinct term from "North America", excluding Central America, which itself may or may not include Mexico.

In the Spanish version (América del Norte or Norteamérica):
En los países hispanohablantes, el uso normalmente define a Norteamérica como el subcontinente conformado por Canadá, Estados Unidos (incluyendo Alaska), México, (hasta el istmo de Tehuantepec {so not all of Mexico}), Groenlandia e islas adyacentes. [...] Por otro lado, el geoesquema de la ONU usa “Northern America” (América Norteña) para indicar la subregión cultural conformada por Estados Unidos y Canadá {clearly excluding Mexico!}.

With so many definitions and similar names, there are endless possibilities for pedantry, haha!
It's no surprise that people (who tend to think along cultural lines, not plate tectonics or biological realms) will say North America and mean "English-speaking Northern America".

To me the Rio Grande Valley, with its neotropical birds and nearly fully Spanish-speaking population, felt very much like South America indeed!

 

[temmie]

What you say is not accurate. Mexicans refer to those from the U.S. and Canada as "norteamericanos." So it's not a perspective those north of the border are imposing on them.

Your complaint is more an instance of people who don't live in the western hemisphere trying to tell people who live here how we should refer to our geography; just as this thread is mostly about people who don't live here trying to tell us what bird names to use. Neocolonialism indeed.

Be careful with what you suggest as Josh is, as far as I known, an American citizen, born (and raised) in the USA, and even while he is indulging on chocolate and swiss cheese fondue nowadays in his posh Swiss chalet, he spends a considerable amount of time in the Western hemisphere chasing Tiny Hawks.

 

[Jim M.]

Be careful with what you suggest as Josh is, as far as I known, an American citizen, born (and raised) in the USA, and even while he is indulging on chocolate and swiss cheese fondue nowadays in his posh Swiss chalet, he spends a considerable amount of time in the Western hemisphere chasing Tiny Hawks.

Josh is a good egg, but his views have obviously been warped by living in euroland. I was aware he's spent a lot of time in South America--but that's not really the "here" that's most relevant (it's Mexico and the U.S./Canada).

 

[Andy Adcock]

There are those in the South of England who believe the North of England starts at Watford (it doesn't, though the Midlands could be argued to start at Watford Gap which is some fifty miles further North) so what Mexicans colloquially call fellow North Americans doesn't really matter. What matters is the reality on the globe which shows Mexico as clearly part of the same big blob as the USA and Canada. The obviously different bit is called South America (where does that leave "the Deep South"?)

1. As a 'Midlander', I've always known Oxford to be the Southrn most part of the Midlands

2. Mexico, I've most often seen referred to as 'Southern' North America.

Regarding geographic regions, I thought that certainly with continents, the wildlife is indicative. My current home is Cyprus but nobody can decide if it belongs to N. Africa or Western Asia, the birds are certainly not particulary suggestive of either to me with just a couple of exceptions.

My colleagues from northern Italy are adamant that Africa starts somewhere north of Rome, maybe a bit further south if they are broad-minded.

To me the Rio Grande Valley, with its neotropical birds and nearly fully Spanish-speaking population, felt very much like South America indeed!

Are there recognised transition zones on every continent such as we have with Wallacea where the birdlife, gradually switches from Asian to Australasian? Where do North American birds, start to mingle with Central or South American species?

 

[Mysticete]

1. As a 'Midlander', I've always known Oxford to be the Southrn most part of the Midlands

2. Mexico, I've most often seen referred to as 'Southern' North America.

Regarding geographic regions, I thought that certainly with continents, the wildlife is indicative. My current home is Cyprus but nobody can decide if it belongs to N. Africa or Western Asia, the birds are certainly not particulary suggestive of either to me with just a couple of exceptions.


Are there recognised transition zones on every continent such as we have with Wallacea where the birdlife, gradually switches from Asian to Australasian? Where do North American birds, start to mingle with Central or South American species?

I am not sure its as obvious as Wallacea, as the island nature of that transition I think makes things a lot more straightforward. Mexico is pretty much the transitional "region", with the Neotropics extending north into the country roughly along the Gulf, while the deserts and mountains of the west are more typically Nearctic.

It's why I have never been really for adding Mexico to the ABA birding region, which otherwise is purely Nearctic

 

[limonabe]

Mexico, I've most often seen referred to as 'Southern' North America.

In what source(s) have you most often heard Mexico referred to as "Southern North America"?

 

[Andy Adcock]

In what source(s) have you most often heard Mexico referred to as "Southern North America"?

I thought I'd seen it used in a book title but I may have that wrong, it may have been Northern Central America.

Edit: This has me looking on the internet. I'm sure I've seen it somewhere?