Just got my 8x20 BR's! (1 Viewer)

[mikefitz6]

I have waffled on these for some time now. I decided to get some Leupold 8x32 (used) Golden Rings. Went back to the local Sportsman Warehouse today and the Leicas were down to $482 for new 8x20 BR's. I just couldn't stand it and bought them.

I compared them to the 8x32 GR's and my 8x42 Pentax DCF WP's. I could look up the specs such as FOV, but I avoided the specs to get my true impression.

Since I have no idea how to test these, take my comments with a grain of salt.

After a little viewing in cloudy conditions The 8x20's seem to be sharper, show more detail, and have just a little better contrast than the other two. The sharpness seems to go out farther towards the edge than the other two.

The GR's seem to be better than the Pentax in contrast and maybe a little bit sharper. The GR's may have better sharpness to the edge, but not by much.

The difference between the Leica over the other two is easier to see than the difference between the GR and the Pentax.

Negatives?

Now that it is getting dark, the 2.5mm exit pupil on the Leicas is an obvious disadvantage. The other two are way brighter. Since I don't hunt, and usually sound asleep at sunrise and doing the choirs I put off all day at sunset, this may not be a big deal.

The GR's feel the heaviest. I like the balance of the Pentax a little better. This is not a huge difference.

I get blackouts in the GR's more than the Pentax and the Leicas. Not a big enough problem to concern me, but I do notice it.

Surprises?

I think the GR's have the widest FOV with the Leicas and Pentaxes tied.

The Leicas are easy to hold steady. I thought they would be shaking all over because of the light weight.

Most likely to be in my pocket/briefcase, or with me on a bike trip? Why, the Leicas of course! It doesn't matter how much brighter the other two are if they are still at home.

I am pretty happy with the purchase. Each of the other two have their advantages. I don't think that there are any real surprises with my findings. Advancements in glass, better coatings, and getting what you pay for still hold true.

When I get some clear skies, I will try them all for astronomy! They will be going up against my 15x70's. (For anyone who wants to try a little astronomy comparisons with their binos, find Mars and slowly pan below it. You will find a loose collection of stars or open cluster called the beehive cluster or M44).

Mike

 

[statestat]

Good synopsis, congrats on the compact bins. I have compacts (Zeiss Victory 8x20), and they are used far more than I ever imagined since they are usually with me, and so far have never disappointed me and the view is amazing to others. I forgive the limitations since the size and conveince far outweigh the limits.

 

[mikefitz6]

I have been using all three binos trying to see the differences. I still have an overall impression that the Leicas are sharper than the Pentax and the Leupolds.

It also seems that the Leicas show more detail/contrast. This seems obvious in daylight viewing. This is especially true of the bright areas.

So now I am wondering. If I take a picture with my camera and overexpose the brights I loose a lot of detail. Does the Leica look better because the exit pupil is only 2.5? In other words the Pentax with an exit pupil of 5.25 and the Leupld with an exit pupil of 4 are letting in too much light? This allows an 'overexposure' of the bright areas which leaves them looking washed out compared to the Leica.

I have heard this effect can be true with a telescope eyepiece. At my age my max dark adapted pupil is about 5mm. A telescope eyepiece with an exit pupil of 7mm will leave the sky looking grey compared to the darker background color of a 5mm exit pupil.

So my hypothesis is that the Leica is not better than the other two binos, it just has the proper 'exposure' and matches my daytime pupil size better. No extra light is being gathered to wash out the brighter details. That is why as it gets darker, the Pentax and Leupolds do better. My pupil opens up to adjust to failing light and matches the exit pupil size of the bigger binos. The Leica now looses detail because it's 2.5mm exit pupil can no longer deliver enough light. Therefore my selection of binoculars should be based on my pupil size which is dependent on the light levels. Bright conditions the Leica. Cloudy days the Leupolds. Dusk and dawn the Pentaxes. (No I don't fully believe this, but I am just curious about how I am mixing up the facts!)

Thanks for your opinions!

Mike

 

[brocknroller]

Mike,

Congrats! on your new Leica. You got a great buy, they normally sell for $699!

At full price, I'm not so sure that "you get what you pay for" is a dictum that still always applies in the 21st century where manufacturing off-shore greatly reduces costs. Germany has the highest labor wages in Europe and the highest cost of living, and with Leica not able to spread out their costs due to lower units manufactured unlike a company such as Bushnell or Nikon, a compact costing $700 is a bit of stretch for "getting one's money's worth".

For $699, I can buy two good quality full sized Chinese bins, one with ED glass, or a "second tier" Zeiss Conquest 8x30 B T made in Hungary.

But you got a good deal, and if the Leica compact pleases you, that's what counts, not how much it costs. Though your wife might think otherwise!

However, my point is that I think there is growing opinion that the incremental improvements in alphas are giving a diminished value for the dollar. See the "Upgrading from Trinovid BA to Ultravid HD" thread.

Still a "cut" above the competition, but you pay through the nose for that 5%-10% extra if you don't get a good deal on the price.

Regarding the smaller exit pupil of compacts... if you have astigmatism, a smaller exit pupil will reduce the effects because you are using less of your cornea.

To show this, hold your hand out in front of you and fold your fingers in, forming a small hole at the end of your palms. Look at a bright object naked eye and then use your hand "lens" and see the difference.

You should see increased sharpness through the small hole. If you have astigmatism, the effect will be even more pronounced. Even if you don't, it will still reduce glare and improve the view.

 

[mikefitz6]

Brock,

I do have astigmatism. Since you are also an astronomer, you will understand what I am about to tell you. My first dob was an Orion XT 10. Imagine my distress when I put it together and found out I had pinched optics! I pull it apart 3 times trying to get rid of the 'seagull' stars. Each time I would put the scope back together I would count how many turns I made on each of the 3 mirror clips screws and I still could not fix it. My son came along and asked why I was frustrated. I said because nothing is pinpoint. He looked and said all the stars were sharp. That's when I realized it was my eyeball and not the mirror that had a defect.

Folks talk about how sharp Jupiter can look through a binocular such as the Pentax 20x60's. I just see a blob with flare on one end. I can see where the smaller exit pupil of the Leicas would improve the views now that you have explained it. Thanks!

I will read through the thread you referenced. I know the ZR's are highly thought of by you and many others on the forum. Just today I got a notice that the Nikon 8x32 SE's are being shipped to me. It has been so long ago that I ordered them that I forgot about them. Now, getting some Leupolds, Leicas, and the Nikons all over the course of two weeks it just not a healthy thing to do. As a sacrifice to 'She who Must not be Disobeyed' and in order to spare my life, two of these will have to go. I really like the little Leica's and I will have these all the time. After my wife is appeased, maybe I will look at the ZR in a respectable amount of time.

Thanks for the info.

Mike

 

[NDhunter]

Brock,

I do have astigmatism. Since you are also an astronomer, you will understand what I am about to tell you. My first dob was an Orion XT 10. Imagine my distress when I put it together and found out I had pinched optics! I pull it apart 3 times trying to get rid of the 'seagull' stars. Each time I would put the scope back together I would count how many turns I made on each of the 3 mirror clips screws and I still could not fix it. My son came along and asked why I was frustrated. I said because nothing is pinpoint. He looked and said all the stars were sharp. That's when I realized it was my eyeball and not the mirror that had a defect.

Folks talk about how sharp Jupiter can look through a binocular such as the Pentax 20x60's. I just see a blob with flare on one end. I can see where the smaller exit pupil of the Leicas would improve the views now that you have explained it. Thanks!

I will read through the thread you referenced. I know the ZR's are highly thought of by you and many others on the forum. Just today I got a notice that the Nikon 8x32 SE's are being shipped to me. It has been so long ago that I ordered them that I forgot about them. Now, getting some Leupolds, Leicas, and the Nikons all over the course of two weeks it just not a healthy thing to do. As a sacrifice to 'She who Must not be Disobeyed' and in order to spare my life, two of these will have to go. I really like the little Leica's and I will have these all the time. After my wife is appeased, maybe I will look at the ZR in a respectable amount of time.

Thanks for the info.

Mike

Mike:

What a problem you are facing. When you get the Nikons you will then find
that they will be the ones you want to keep. That 8x32 SE is just that good.

Now remember, these are only binoculars, and nothing to lose your life over! :eek!:

Jerry

 

[brocknroller]

Brock,

I do have astigmatism. Since you are also an astronomer, you will understand what I am about to tell you. My first dob was an Orion XT 10. Imagine my distress when I put it together and found out I had pinched optics! I pull it apart 3 times trying to get rid of the 'seagull' stars. Each time I would put the scope back together I would count how many turns I made on each of the 3 mirror clips screws and I still could not fix it. My son came along and asked why I was frustrated. I said because nothing is pinpoint. He looked and said all the stars were sharp. That's when I realized it was my eyeball and not the mirror that had a defect.

Folks talk about how sharp Jupiter can look through a binocular such as the Pentax 20x60's. I just see a blob with flare on one end. I can see where the smaller exit pupil of the Leicas would improve the views now that you have explained it. Thanks!

I will read through the thread you referenced. I know the ZR's are highly thought of by you and many others on the forum. Just today I got a notice that the Nikon 8x32 SE's are being shipped to me. It has been so long ago that I ordered them that I forgot about them. Now, getting some Leupolds, Leicas, and the Nikons all over the course of two weeks it just not a healthy thing to do. As a sacrifice to 'She who Must not be Disobeyed' and in order to spare my life, two of these will have to go. I really like the little Leica's and I will have these all the time. After my wife is appeased, maybe I will look at the ZR in a respectable amount of time.

Thanks for the info.

Mike

Mike,

You're welcome. If you don't suffer from the dreaded "blackouts," you will probably be pleased with the 8x32 SE.

If your prescription glasses aren't too thick and your eyes aren't too deep set, the 17.4mm ER on the SE's should be sufficient for your eyeglasses so you can correct your astigmatism.

If you don't have a midsized or full sized birding/general use bin, you will want the SE or Leupold as a back up for your compacts during the winter and on dim overcast days when you will need a larger exit pupil bin (not that you probably get many overcast days in CO compared to PA).

I was in CO visiting my childhood friend, and we were playing tennis, and it was 18% humidity during a thunderstorm. I could see the curtain of rain coming down, but it never hit the ground. When the storm passed overhead, a few drops hit the tennis court we were playing on. In PA, that storm would have drenched us. It passed quickly and the skies cleared again.

Where I live, I could never use a compact as my main bin since it's too limiting for the winter and on dim overcast days, which we have a LOT of here. Hopefully, you can convince "She who Must not be Disobeyed" why you need two bins by letting her look at some birds with the Leica during the day and then again near dusk.

If you saw Jupiter as a blob with a flare on the end when you looked through the Pentax 20x60, with its 3mm exit pupil and razor sharp optics, either you had a bad sample, or you're astigmatism must be severe. The bin does show some CA around the planet, particularly if it's low in the sky, but Jupiter should be almost perfectly round. Under good sky conditions, you can make out the two large equatorial bands.

I had the Pentax 20x60 PCF V (earlier version, which I think from reports I've read was better than the versions that followed). They were the only binoculars I've used hand held that could separate the rings of Saturn from the planet.

Plus, the smaller exit pupils also made my bright skies look darker, which helped give better contrast on DSOs. The Double Cluster looked "telescopic" through the Pentax 20x60.

Alas, for daytime use, the bin showed way too much CA. Great for making purple-tailed hawks!

As I get older, I get shakier, so I find myself needing lower power for hand held use, and the ZR 7x36 ED2 helps keep shakes to a minimum.

I was in the backyard today, watching a Pileated Woodpecker devour the suet I put out. His crest was very detailed through my 8x30 EII, but it looked even more detailed and vibrant through the ZR.

Plus, the image scale with the ZR is so much larger than the EII that the woodpecker looked like Rodan (from the Jap. horror films). HUGE.

I also noticed that he communicated with another woodpecker by pecking on a branch. He couldn't see which bird was making the pecking sounds, but I could. It was a small, Downy woodpecker.

I'm not sure why he felt the need to communicate with another species unless the two species' "pecks" are hard to distinguish from each other.

It was like one of those African safari movies where one tribe drums a certain beat, and another tribe drums back.

This went on back and forth for a while until one of my neighbors came out of his house and both woodpeckers took off. I wish I had a recorder with me. If I could record the pecking, I might be able to attract the Pileated Woodpecker to the backyard when I'm out of suet.

Good Luck! with "Sophie's Choice".

 

[Kammerdiner]

Regarding the smaller exit pupil of compacts... if you have astigmatism, a smaller exit pupil will reduce the effects because you are using less of your cornea.

Interesting. I've wondered why my 8x20 Ultras give sharper stars than some of my bigger bins. My astigmatism is notable.

As for keeping bins, I have the 8x20 Ultravid, the 8x32 SE and the ZR ED2 and if I had to give one up it would probably be the 8x20. There are dirt cheap 8x25 reverse porros that are optically every bit as good as the Leica. On the other hand, nothing short of the new Swaros (if that) can touch the SE.

I'm keeping all three anyway. My wife thinks I'm crazy but she humors me. There are worse vices, after all, than having half a dozen binoculars.