Harrier - sw France today (1 Viewer)

[rosbifs]

Any thoughts

This just passed and I’m bookless..

 

[Mark Eising]

Hen Harrier!

 

[Andy Hurley]

Hen Harrier. I don't think its a Montagu's

 

[Butty]

Can't see why. It's got (fairly) unmarked underbody and underwing-coverts.

 

[rosbifs]

I thought pallid

4 fingers? With one moulting

Collar
‘Boomerang’
Face pattern with lot of black and also meeting bottom of bill

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello,
is it possible to see the original pictures? I understand why you posted as soon as possible.
But I agree with Butty on both points he mentioned:

• extent and strenghts of streaking on underpart is important and cant be judged with the needed amount of confidence in this 2 cy bird. Same with any pattern in the wing. Might well be different on the original pictures.
• same with the collar: is it solid or does it consist of streaks?
• I assume you think it might well be a Montagus. Right Butty?
• I agree I think it is one, and no Hen Harrier.

But other threads here on BF proofed that I still have much to learn. Thanks to all!
And I hope for Tom and others to jump in here!

 

[rosbifs]

I’m nearly home

I can download quite a few pictures and review them on computer as well!

I thought 2cy but wouldn’t a 2cy monties be far more in advance than this? End autumn rather than end winter?

Anyway, coffee stop finished….

 

[Butty]

I thought maybe pallid harrier from neck pattern and lack of good dark trailing edge to primaries.

 

[rosbifs]

Now I’m almost there

 

[rosbifs]

So I'm seeing 4 fingers so either monties or pallid. I'm thinking it's a 2cy

I'm seeing a very dark around face
I'm seeing a pale collar
I'm seeing uniform pattern in hand
I'm seeing a light outer edge to primaries - not a dark border
I'm seeing uniform back around secondaries
I'm seeing the 'boomerang' loud and clear
It felt a little stocky - less gangly than Monties...

Not seeing a dark band on coverts - back

Got to be????

 

[David_]

Don't have too much experience with Pallid harriers (only seen one yet) but I think it looks good for Pallid

 

[Butty]

Surely that's five fingers??
What does define a finger... that question's been left hanging before

 

[rosbifs]

That’s why I ask on here!!!!

From =

Identification update: Pallid Harrier

Hillwell, Shetland, Sept- Oct 2011 An earlier post about the juvenile Pallid Harrier, produce very interesting responses and questions. Roger Riddington has replied in detail to this question from …

birdingfrontiers.wordpress.com

 

[lou salomon]

p6 is not a finger, Butty, it's in the row of primaries attached together, the other ones (p7-10) really stick out as fingers. But the ID is really tricky, I see conflicting features. Note that juvenile Monty's often have all dark secondaries. p10 looks long (pro Monty), barring on primaries looks regular (no bend, hooked, comma-like marks like in Pallid). On the other hand face and neck pattern look very Pallid like (which can be deceiving at times!). It's a 2cy female but for the moment I'd stay on the fence...

 

[Butty]

p6 is not a finger, Butty, it's in the row of primaries attached together

So a 'finger' has to have clear space along both sides. Good
Though something tells me that's not how many (most??) people use the term...

 

[Eranou]

On first glance i would have to go with juvenile Pallid. Four fingers, the tips of which are not dark like a juv Montagu’s. Also the distinct light collar, although this can also be present in the Montagu’s but not as defined.

 

[tconzemi]

I agree with Lou that sec cal year Montys with bleached wings are a real challenge and might be very close to Pallid, especially the tips of the inner primaries. So if we forget the wings altogether we are left with the head pattern: boa, collar, reduced white and cheek patch reaching broadly the bill, I'd go with Pallid here

 

[rosbifs]

p6 is not a finger, Butty, it's in the row of primaries attached together, the other ones (p7-10) really stick out as fingers. But the ID is really tricky, I see conflicting features. Note that juvenile Monty's often have all dark secondaries. p10 looks long (pro Monty), barring on primaries looks regular (no bend, hooked, comma-like marks like in Pallid). On the other hand face and neck pattern look very Pallid like (which can be deceiving at times!). It's a 2cy female but for the moment I'd stay on the fence...

Thanks for input Lou. I thought though that the Monties showed scrambled barring on primaries, hence my comment 'uniform' barring. Although, this seems only to be the case in juv males? As for length of p10 Monties shows P10 longer than P6 and visa versa for the Pallid so yes one of the sides is suspicious. Personally I struggle with measuring this, more so when trying to fabricate a Lesser Kestrel for example - so for the 'dodgy' wing I see the opposite on the other wing formula... My second question is at what point or how do you measure/compare the fingers, particularly on a flying bird?

Anyway, this female makes the set for me although the adult male was the easiest to Identify! Typically, in the heat of the moment I knew I needed photos so sort of missed the opportunity to watch the bird - once I had blasted a few shots I got some middle distant views of the bird over the fields in great light - I resisted reaching for the camera again as it wasn't slowing down and was soon to disappear, I'm assuming its headed north.

One other positive is that having watched progress of the satellite tagged 'Polka', a few years ago, it became apparent that these birds are fairly consistent in their migration routes so all fairing well she'll be back!