APM MS-6x30 (1 Viewer)

[Ignatius]

I received my APM MS-6x30 today.
Like other reviewers I find the view to be clear, sharp and bright in the center, falling off towards the edges. The build quality appears to be quite solid. The generous field of view of 9.3 degrees invites the eye to rove, and that is one of the problems: no matter how I adjust the IPD or the fold down eyecups, as soon as I approach the field stop, I get kidney beaning.
The other problem is that the diopter adjustment is off by +3 dpt.
Ok, this is a €195 instrument, but that is exactly €195 wasted, if it just sits on the sideboard gathering dust because I'm not having fun using it.
I think I will write to APM and ask about returning it.

 

[limonabe]

You can fix the diopter yourself. Find the three tiny screws under the rubber eyecup, loosen them, and twist the ring until it is calibrated to the diopter scale.

 

[Hermann]

Like other reviewers I find the view to be clear, sharp and bright in the center, falling off towards the edges. The build quality appears to be quite solid. The generous field of view of 9.3 degrees invites the eye to rove, and that is one of the problems: no matter how I adjust the IPD or the fold down eyecups, as soon as I approach the field stop, I get kidney beaning.

You're far too quick. You can't expect to take a binocular out of its box and voila, everything is perfect. You need some time to get used to it (and to get the settings right). Happens to me with (almost) every new binocular, no matter how much I paid for it.

And, BTW, trying to consciously focus your eyes on something at the edge of the field of view isn't really a natural way of using binoculars with a wide field of view. Try to do that with one of the old wideangle binoculars, like the Zeiss West 10x50. It doesn't work.

The other problem is that the diopter adjustment is of by +3 dpt.

That's easily remedied. See limonabe's post above.

Hermann

 

[Ignatius]

Even at € 195 I do not expect to 'fix' stuff by partially disassembling a brand new binocular, no matter how easy the repair might be. It voids what warranty there is and supports shoddy QC. For those that have no such qualms, @limonabe's idea is of course commendable.

As far as speed goes - I took the FL 7x42 out of the box, and it was love and perfection at first view. I unboxed my SFL 8x30, expecting a similarly excellent ease of view as my 8x40, and I had to 'learn' how to set it and set it to my eyes. No problem there.
But with this APM, and I quote myself

... no matter how I adjust the IPD or the fold down eyecups, as soon as I approach the field stop, I get kidney beaning. ...

No matter what I do, I get kidney beaning as I approach the field stop, not as I try to stare and focus on stuff at the extreme edges of the field of view. To me at least it is natural, to move my eyes around as I look, with or without binoculars. I do not stare ahead and move my head. A larger field of view invites that behaviour even more. My Habicht 7x42 with its notoriously smaller field of view still makes this normal behaviour possible. No beans. When I want to focus on stuff I glimpse out of the corner of my eye as it were, I will move my head in that direction.

I emailed APM yesterday, received no reply, so this morning the thing is going in the post. I very much doubt I will be tempted to try the 6.5x32 CF if and when it becomes available. One rebadged Sky Rover is enough.

My only problem now is: where do I get a useable 6x30 from.
The Zeiss West ones do not have a very good reputation.
I am trying to research the coating of the Zeiss Jena ones without really getting anywhere.
I had the little Kowa YF and found hardly any correlation between eye relief and eyecup, so I always had to float it before my face, hardly a comfortable position, even for short periods of time. Also not conducive to the fabled calm view of a 6x.
IF is not an option because even with a great depth of field, I must begin to think ahead to when my accommodation no longer makes up for a missing focusser. I am already beginning to notice that the depth of field on 7x50 IF Steiner is becoming shallower.

 

[Antonello66]

"A good day is seen in the morning." When first impressions are not positive, it is not easy to change them. But as an owner of the 6x30 MS I have to tell you that I like it very much, I share @Hermann ‘s thought, give it a few more chances.

 

[Ignatius]

Still no word from APM, so that amount of disinterest in a customer's opinion about a problematic product alone seals the bino's fate. It is now on the way back to Germany.
I might give the Opticron Adventurer T WP 6.5x32 and/or the Opticron Savanna 6x30 a try.

 

[Antonello66]

They are not very quick to respond, I recommend making a phone call too. The response could be: “we have responded to the email, check your SPAM box”

 

[Hermann]

Still no word from APM, so that amount of disinterest in a customer's opinion about a problematic product alone seals the bino's fate. It is now on the way back to Germany.

Well, of the dozen or so people who tried my APM in the field not a single one complained about kidney beaning or any other problem with the "Einblicksverhalten". Nor did I hear about any such problems from other users.

Not sure it's the bin that's "problematic".

Hermann

 

[Tringa45]

I might give the Opticron Adventurer T WP 6.5x32 and/or the Opticron Savanna 6x30 a try.

There really is a dearth of low-powered binoculars. The Opticron Savanna appears to be very similar to the Kowa YF, Leupold Yosemite and Vixen Atrek and the Adventurer is even lower-priced, so high expectations would be misplaced.
Vortex Viper and Meopta Meopro are discontinued, so the only remaining alternative would appear to be the Kowa BD 6,5x32.

John

 

[Patudo]

No matter what I do, I get kidney beaning as I approach the field stop, not as I try to stare and focus on stuff at the extreme edges of the field of view. To me at least it is natural, to move my eyes around as I look, with or without binoculars. I do not stare ahead and move my head. A larger field of view invites that behaviour even more.

Sorry you didn't get along with it, but that's fair enough; some folks just cannot get along even with the very best binoculars (someone here was reporting huge issues with the SF 8x42).

I do exactly the same when looking through binoculars - like when reading a book or looking at a computer monitor, my eyes move, my head doesn't - and as a result I do appreciate good edge performance in a binocular. Fortunately I have not had kidney beaning/blackouts when looking near the field stop in any of the binoculars I have tried, long or short eye relief, flat field or not. I wonder if longer eyecups might have helped with your issues. Rubber eyecups (like on the APM) are not ideal for long eye relief binoculars used without glasses. The APM is supposedly 18.5mm and with my 10x42 SE, which can also give trouble with blackouts, 17.5mm. APM should maybe have specified them with twist-up eyecups.

My only problem now is: where do I get a useable 6x30 from.
The Zeiss West ones do not have a very good reputation.
I am trying to research the coating of the Zeiss Jena ones without really getting anywhere.
I had the little Kowa YF and found hardly any correlation between eye relief and eyecup, so I always had to float it before my face, hardly a comfortable position, even for short periods of time. Also not conducive to the fabled calm view of a 6x.

You sound like quite a demanding customer but if it has to be a 6x30, has to be multi-coated (as you express dissatisfaction with the Zeiss West and seem dissatisfied with Zeiss Jena), and have shorter eye relief than the APM (which should help with blackouts), maybe a 6x30 Habicht could be worth searching for. They're rare, but you probably have a better chance of finding one in Austria than anywhere else. Good luck in your search!

 

[Ignatius]

I am indeed thinking of going that route, but late model nitrogen purged Habicht 6x30s (1984-1994) are about as rare as rocking horse pooh, and probably just as expensive. Even here.
The Zeiss Jena Silvarem I am not dissatisfied with. I am just still trying to learn about the coatings of those. I'm aware that they were only made until 1975 and CZJ only introduced the T3M multi-coating in 1978, but even my search for answers about that in another thread only led to rambling general discussions about phase coatings in roofs. So no joy there.
And yes, I have never read anything good about the Zeiss West 6x30. Might as well use my old Telexem then.

 

[Hermann]

I am indeed thinking of going that route, but late model nitrogen purged Habicht 6x30s (1984-1994) are about as rare as rocking horse pooh, and probably just as expensive. Even here.

And they won't have multi-layer coatings that can compete with what's available today. Make no mistake: Even in "simple" porros the development of modern multi-coatings did make a huge difference. Just compare a Habicht from, say, 1995, with one made recently.

The Zeiss Jena Silvarem I am not dissatisfied with. I am just still trying to learn about the coatings of those. I'm aware that they were only made until 1975 and CZJ only introduced the T3M multi-coating in 1978, but even my search for answers about that in another thread only led to rambling general discussions about phase coatings in roofs. So no joy there.

The Silvarem had single layer coatings AFAIK. I used a Pentekarem with single layer coatings for a few months back in the day - sharp, but not really very contrasty. The best you can hope for with CZJ are T3M coatings. I used binoculars with T3M coatings for quite a few years. And no, these coatings aren't really very good by today's standards. My mother has still got my late father's Docter 10x50 (basically the same as the CZJ Jenoptem), and the image while sharp in the centre is a bit murky by modern standards. I also don't see any difference between the Docter and late Jenoptems. No visible changes in the coatings.

And yes, I have never read anything good about the Zeiss West 6x30. Might as well use my old Telexem then.

I haven't got one, I've only got an 8x30 from the 1950's. Single layer coatings, short eye relief (Erfle eyepieces). The 6x30 which I only had a chance to look through once ist essentially the same binocular, it has even got the same field of view (150m/1000m). Any later Zeiss 6x30's are IF, including the 6x30B that's also very rare AFAIK.

IMO your only realistic chance is to find a 6x30 with decent optics by today's standards is a Chinese pair. And if the APM doesn't work for you ... A shame really, because the 6x30 is pretty good IMO. The 6.5x32 is even better with even better coatings and better colour correction than the 6x30, a very "transparent" view, you feel like you walk into the image. However, so far I've only seen the IF. How good the CF is mechanically remains to be seen. Apparently the first batch they got was already pre-ordered by people who made up their mind quicker than me.

Hermann

 

[Ignatius]

@Hermann, thank you for your answers. @Canip seems to like his 1992 Habicht 6x30, just like I enjoy my NOS ca. 1990 IF 8x30 GA from the ÖBH.
The Silvarem might still be an option, despite its DDR quality single-layer coatings, but based on the assumption that cheap current porros would offer a better view than 40-year-old Silvarems due to modern glass blanks and better coatings and coating technology, I still also think an Opticron could do. I am perfectly aware, that it will not be comparable to a Zeiss SF or whatever other 'alpha' currently gets the knee-jerk recommendation. However, I enjoy the view through my old 6x Telexem and I want to have that kind of relaxed low power view - only bighter. That 1927 Telexem has no kidney beaning by the way. Tbh, its only drawback is its dim, utterly uncoated view, because on a sunny day it delivers a sharp image. Zeiss were at the top of their game back then too.

 

[Paultricounty]

I also have the APM 6x30 (used three of them) , myself nor anybody I let use them had any issues with kidney bean or black out. Could be a physiological thing with the user. Is it possible it could be a collimation issue?

I’d like to say I’ve done business with Markus at APM since 2001 and I can assure you he is a reputable guy, and will stand behind his sales.

 

[iseegeorgesstar]

Even at € 195 I do not expect to 'fix' stuff by partially disassembling a brand new binocular, no matter how easy the repair might be. It voids what warranty there is and supports shoddy QC. For those that have no such qualms, @limonabe's idea is of course commendable.

As far as speed goes - I took the FL 7x42 out of the box, and it was love and perfection at first view. I unboxed my SFL 8x30, expecting a similarly excellent ease of view as my 8x40, and I had to 'learn' how to set it and set it to my eyes. No problem there.
But with this APM, and I quote myself

No matter what I do, I get kidney beaning as I approach the field stop, not as I try to stare and focus on stuff at the extreme edges of the field of view. To me at least it is natural, to move my eyes around as I look, with or without binoculars. I do not stare ahead and move my head. A larger field of view invites that behaviour even more. My Habicht 7x42 with its notoriously smaller field of view still makes this normal behaviour possible. No beans. When I want to focus on stuff I glimpse out of the corner of my eye as it were, I will move my head in that direction.

I emailed APM yesterday, received no reply, so this morning the thing is going in the post. I very much doubt I will be tempted to try the 6.5x32 CF if and when it becomes available. One rebadged Sky Rover is enough.

My only problem now is: where do I get a useable 6x30 from.
The Zeiss West ones do not have a very good reputation.
I am trying to research the coating of the Zeiss Jena ones without really getting anywhere.
I had the little Kowa YF and found hardly any correlation between eye relief and eyecup, so I always had to float it before my face, hardly a comfortable position, even for short periods of time. Also not conducive to the fabled calm view of a 6x.
IF is not an option because even with a great depth of field, I must begin to think ahead to when my accommodation no longer makes up for a missing focusser. I am already beginning to notice that the depth of field on 7x50 IF Steiner is becoming shallower.

I've been eyeing both of these APM binoculars myself for a small grab and go bino. According to pictures I have seen these are really compact.

There's also the Hinode 6x30 B+ binoculars from Japan.

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bino.hinode-opt.jp

https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/Binoculars-Hinode-6x30-B-Plus-Natural/dp/B00SWH8IYI?th=1

 

[Patudo]

I guess the OP has to decide for himself what level of optical performance he really wants. If it's just an improvement over the uncoated Telexem, any single-coated binocular will offer that. If it has to be the best possible view in that class of binocular, the APM is probably (never seen one myself) it, but if it won't work for the OP, what's the next best option? I guess it's probably the Habicht, so long as it's multi-coated - yes there have been improvements in coatings since the early 1990s (or whenever they were last made), but not like the step up from single to multi-coatings. I have tried the Kowa YF 6x30 and thought it very good for the price image-wise, but it'd require some home modification to the eyecups, which is very possible, but which the OP is reluctant to do.

I've used, and still use (mainly in summer and early autumn, when it's bright and sunny) single-coated 8x30s and 7x35 with much pleasure. Their image quality is fine (to me anyway) for more general, everyday pleasure viewing. We all ooh and ahh about coatings, but there are lots of other factors that contribute towards image quality - the precision with which the lenses and prisms are manufactured and fitted, etc. 6x30 versions should be brighter and probably better all round. When I tried the Kowa YF 8x30 I was struck by how much more average the image quality seemed to be. It's not a total surprise Hermann mentions the 8x32 Moon Star doesn't seem to be as good image-wise as the 6.5x32. I'd certainly find it interesting to look through a single-coated Silvarem, or even the Zeiss West model. But only the OP will know if they're acceptable for him.

6x30 used to be a popular military format, are there any multi-coated versions? Individual focus probably isn't too much of a handicap as the OP seems to be mainly interested in "the view".