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Acrocephalus warbler, Aberdeen (1 Viewer)

Andrew Whitehouse

Professor of Listening
Supporter
Scotland
Anyone any thoughts on the ID of this Acrocephalus warbler? Photos were taken this morning in Aberdeen, Scotland.

I have more pictures but not sure if they show any other details. Let me know if there are any 'bits' that you'd like a closer view of though and I'll see if I can find anything.
 

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Some more shots.
 

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I should add that I heard this bird call quite a few times (I wish I'd recorded it!). It always gave a fairly hard tacking call, a bit like a Lesser Whitethroat.
 
Yeah, hard isn't it. I always get a bit freaked out by plain acros in the autumn. Usually they turn out to look like fairly obvious Reed Warblers, like this one that I found a few weeks ago:
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=596465&d=1472328071
Today's bird didn't strike me as being anything like as obvious and once I got reasonable views and photos I started to see what seemed to be good features for Marsh Warbler. These are:
1. Plumage tone: Mostly looks somewhat cold, yellowish brown and lacks really obvious rusty tones (I think). The rump looks a bit warmer in some pictures but not contrastingly rusty reddish brown. The underparts seem quite pale and slightly yellowish without the contrasting white throat sometimes obvious on Reed.
2. Bill shape: To me this bird seems to have quite a short, chunky bill with a rather broad base and blunt tip. It doesn't seem to have the 'spiky' bill of a normal Reed.
3. Leg colour: The legs and particularly the feet seem quite pale and yellowish and the toes seem pale rather dark.
4. The primary tips seem quite pale though the primary projection doesn't seem mega long, which is less good for Marsh but maybe not outside the limits for them.
5. Call: All calls seemed quite short, hard and 'tacking'. I didn't hear the usual burry 'churr' of a Reed. I'm not totally sure how useful or reliable calls in separating the two though, as they apparently do a variety of calls in autumn.

I take Mark's point about the wing formula, though according to this article:
Other features such as the emargination on P3 being closer to the wing-tip on Marsh and the relative lengths of P2 and P4 overlap (P2 tends to be longer than or equal to P4 on Marsh), seem to be supportive
tendencies rather than firm identification features.

So I'm a bit unsure anyway. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Or maybe the Punkbirders are right and with Reed vs Marsh in autumn 'you're basically stuffed'.

Any other views are welcome!
 
For what it's worth, still a few Reeds at a breeding site in Northumbs today, the 'locals' haven't all left yet (not coastal, so not too likely to be passage from elsewhere).
 
Hi Andrew,
First off, well done on getting so many images of this bird that, while not of photographic field guide quality, are still mostly quite sharp and allow a surprising amount to be seen. It's more the fault of the ID issue at hand than the quality of the images that things aren't clear-cut!

I might thank Mark for drawing this bird to my attention. First off, I might point out that I have no immovable opinions here, set in rock. I will admit that my first impressions were that the bird looked to show appeal for Marsh Warbler, then I began to think that it maybe was just a 1cy Reed Warbler whose bill had yet to fully grow, and now, the more I look, I see features that do suggest that the rarer option of Marsh Warbler may yet be correct. I think it's safe to say that nobody really thinks that this could be a Blyth's Reed?

Anyhow, as I see it, first things first, the bird needs to be aged. I think that the generally fresh appearance strongly points to this being a 1cy bird. Therefore, while that could support a hypothetical young Reed Warbler whose bill was still growing, 1cy nominate Reed tends to be much warmer-toned above than the subject bird, with rustier flanks also. Therefore, the fact that this bird is more sandy brown with olive elements (especially on the mantle) would suggest either fuscus Reed Warbler (so-called 'Caspian Reed Warbler') or a Marsh Warbler.

The leg colour is sort of pale, and not what one typically sees on a Reed Warbler, but variation makes its usefulness somewhat questionable, to say the least. All the same, this doesn't take anything away from this bird's prospects of being a Marsh Warbler. Claw colour is more useful, and the uppersides of this bird's claws appear pale, another pro-Marsh feature but some Reed Warblers can also show pale uppersides to their claws.

The primary projection is long, but not too long, and seems comfortably within the range of variation shown by both species. I have strained looking for the exact position of the emargination on the third primary, and while it does seem like it may have laid further back on the wing than I'd like for a textbook Marsh, the fact that this ambiguity, or difficulty, exists either means that the feature isn't perhaps as useful here anyway or else I need to get a new laptop!

Bill shape and length do seem quite good for Marsh, though I suppose, as surmised, a 1cy Reed could still have its bill growing, just to make life harder. The supraloral doesn't stand out as much as on some Marsh, which almost rival Blyth's Reed in that respect, but nor does the eyering appear to dominate the facial expression in the way that it does on many Reeds. In some images, and I appreciate this is just a soft feature, the combination of bill shape, general colour and head shape give the bird a vague passing resemblance to a Common Whitethroat or something, something that I and others have noted on Marsh but it's by no means absolute, just a supporting feature at best.

Regarding calls, I think a lot of what has been written about vocalisations among unstreaked Acrocephalus warblers has been somewhat confusing and/or simplified. There is a common misconception that Reed Warblers just give a rolling 'tr'r'r'r'r' type call, and that is commonly heard from the species indeed, and then, when faced with any Acro that tacks or chacks there can be the assumption that this must be something rarer. I'm not suggesting you're saying that, Andrew, just to make that clear because online fora are a great place to be misunderstood! Just that the misconception exists, despite the fact that the modern literature points to the true situation.

Basically, Reed Warbler does give a 'chak' type call, and not infrequently either. To my ears, it is somewhat reminiscent of the 'chak' of a European Stonechat. Marsh, and I must stress that I have very limited experience of calling birds of this species, can often give a 'tack' call, reminiscent of a Blackcap or something, and very similar to the typical calls of Blyth's Reed Warbler. I don't hear either often enough to be able to seperate them by ear, and I don't have the means (as yet) to go and convert recordings of both from xeno canto into sonograms. The point is that, and I realise that this is somewhat subjective, all these species give tacking-type calls, at times (just as all of them give a more rolling rattle as well, but, again, I am sure that these all look different on sonograms). Reference to 'tacking' rather than 'chacking' here arguably favours a Marsh/Blyth's Reed type call, but one must always be careful of reading intent into another person's words that may never have been there in the first place...

So, in short, I'd hate to have to make a firm conclusion either way, but suffice it to say that I'd not be quick to dismiss it as 'just' a typical Reed Warbler, at the very least, and many features do seem suggestive, some strongly so, of Marsh Warbler.

Regards,
Harry
 
Thanks enormously for such a lengthy, detailed and clear contribution Harry. From what I've read, the differences in the calls between Reed and Marsh need quite a bit of care and both species can do somewhat similar calls. The Scottish Birds article I linked to above seems to suggest that some of the 'hard' calls given by Marsh are distinctive but, having listened to a few recordings on xeno-canto, there seems to be quite a bit overlap and variation that, for me at least, makes it hard to know exactly what to listen for. Maybe the hard calls are a bit of an indicator towards Marsh and those more experienced than me might be able to use them confidently, but I wouldn't claim anything based on calls without recordings. I'm hoping it might still be around tomorrow so I can get some.
 
Marsh has on average more rounded nostrils - shorter and wider. Of course your photos have the proximal end covered in feathers but it looks like a wide one. Viewing angle can close up a round one but not open out a narrow one if that makes sense
 

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