Stop requiring archaic forms for rarities (1 Viewer)

[Maffong]

For rarity committees to function efficiently a certain standartisation is necessary. This is most easily achieved with a standardised form. Otherwise important information will always be forgotten. I also believe that 80-90 % of birders will actually have to add some info to their photos, I believe you are rather the exception here, Jan. I don't really understand this kind of mindset, but I accept that it exists.
Birders should come forward with their observations and a little form filling shouldn't be such a problem. We all have no problems uploading to ebird, ornitho or others, which is also a kind of form filling.
Where I agree, is that most forms are completely outdated. It should be possible to fill them out online, have standard information remembered (name, adress, etc.) and some other information computed (e.g. geo data, weather).

 

[opisska]

. It should be possible to fill them out online, have standard information remembered (name, adress, etc.) and some other information computed (e.g. geo data, weather).

I have yet to see a form where this would be the case. It's always a word document in which you have to put everything by hand.

 

[Maffong]

Here is an example.
It's not perfect yet, but I believe it's the best one I know

 

[Farnboro John]

I gotta say I agree with Jan here, but will obviously provide the caveat that I don't really value Rarity Committees whatsoever.

But what I find interesting about this thread is the number of people who indeed just accept these things as a defacto part of birding.

I've often said, I don't know anyone who started out birding thinking " I hope I find something good today so I can fill out a form and submit it to some randomers" 😂

At some point that gets pushed on you as a birder, you become indoctrinated to it.

Owen

I think for a lot of us that do it it is much more about having all rarities documented as fully as possible. Secondary to that (I think, anyway) is "I would like to see my name against this bird in the report and I want to give myself the best chance of that".

Birding focused birders like me never know who's on the committee anyway....

John

 

[Xenospiza]

Here is an example.
It's not perfect yet, but I believe it's the best one I know

It is OK, but still quite some overkill. It requires a ridiculous SEVEN fields for the location, where just the ornitho.de entry (or the coordinates) would suffice.
The Northrhine-Westphalia form (a word file based on this) switches all letters to CAPITALS, so I send my description as a separate file.

Writing out the description of a female Pallid Harrier (which I had reasonable, but not great pictures of) this year was quite useful to learn something (I wouldn't expect the rarity committee to accept the photo without me doing most of the heavy lifting).
A description for a Cattle Egret accompanied with some really good photos felt like a superfluous bit of work...

The Dutch online form is similarly redundant, though not as geared towards privacy questions as the German one (no surprise):

Indienen waarnemingsformulier - Dutch Avifauna

www.dutchavifauna.nl

I still need to write a description for the CDNA but here I would really need to upload the description as a word file.

 

[Trinovid]

I'll never fill out one of these forms, but between the Dutch and German versions, I like the highlighting in the latter, to show what has to be filled out, which makes it both easier to go to those areas and fill them in, or opt out.

 

[Xenospiza]

I'll never fill out one of these forms, but between the Dutch and German versions, I like the highlighting in the latter, to show what has to be filled out, which makes it both easier to go to those areas and fill them in, or opt out.

Yes, there are a few other things (like better tips on what to write) which could help improve the Dutch form.

 

[Helsinki Birder]

I think for a lot of us that do it it is much more about having all rarities documented as fully as possible. Secondary to that (I think, anyway) is "I would like to see my name against this bird in the report and I want to give myself the best chance of that".

Birding focused birders like me never know who's on the committee anyway....

John

Indeed, but as I said, who starts out birding thinking that's what needs doing?

In Ireland, the Rarity recording system has simply fallen apart. The Irish Rare Birds Committee...The end of days?
And that's before you look at who is actually on there these days,

https://twitter.com/x/status/1594936094822383617

But yet, birding goes on and continues to be enjoyable. The world keeps turning and you kind of realize such an organization wasn't required in the first place.

Owen

 

[Stephen Dunstan]

Indeed, but as I said, who starts out birding thinking that's what needs doing?

In Ireland, the Rarity recording system has simply fallen apart. The Irish Rare Birds Committee...The end of days?
And that's before you look at who is actually on there these days,

https://twitter.com/x/status/1594936094822383617

But yet, birding goes on and continues to be enjoyable. The world keeps turning and you kind of realize such an organization wasn't required in the first place.

Owen

I am not sure why a birder who doesn't see the value of rarities committee per se keeps returning on here to the perceived failures of one in a country they don't live in. If birding is enjoyable regardless just enjoy it...

 

[Xenospiza]

But yet, birding goes on and continues to be enjoyable. The world keeps turning and you kind of realize such an organization wasn't required in the first place.

What are your thoughts on the Finnish rarity committee (which is currently more relevant to you) then?

BirdLife Suomi | Harvinaisuushavaintojen ilmoittaminen

Yhdessä lintujen puolesta

www.birdlife.fi

At least they don't ask for seven location fields to be filled in.

 

[Helsinki Birder]

What are your thoughts on the Finnish rarity committee (which is currently more relevant to you) then?

BirdLife Suomi | Harvinaisuushavaintojen ilmoittaminen

Yhdessä lintujen puolesta

www.birdlife.fi

At least they don't ask for seven location fields to be filled in.

I don't know much about them. As I say in the blog post, I don't engage with rarity Committees wherever I go. Finland is more like the UK than Ireland, in that it also has a more localized structure of county/provincial record committees too.

So far as I can see from my time here, they don't go starting fights like the Irish one has done, or have any weirdos or people promoting known conspiracy theories. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. Tis all good.

Owen

 

[Helsinki Birder]

I am not sure why a birder who doesn't see the value of rarities committee per se keeps returning on here to the perceived failures of one in a country they don't live in. If birding is enjoyable regardless just enjoy it...

I'd like my country to be better. It's not a difficult concept to understand.

Owen

 

[Tor Olsen]

As I say in the blog post, I don't engage with rarity Committees wherever I go.

I must admit I struggle a bit following your reasoning. You obviously got some bad history with the Irish committee for which it is difficult for an outsider like me to have any say. My only contact with the IRBC is limited to occasional requests for info on Irish records, to which they have promptly responded. I acknowledge that you may have different experiences.

What I do not manage to get from your linked blog-post (that was very long, and I only skimmed through) is how any conflicts with IBRC have led you to not "engage with rarity Committees wherever". That is of course your decision entirely and if you are of the opinion that such committees serve no purpose, we just have different opinions, which is fine. But if you still think that RCs may have a value, I'd very much like to understand why you have written them all off over bad experiences with just one (?) of them.

It seems like some people believe that the purpose of RCs is to be some kind of "twitching police", which in my opinion is a misunderstanding. In my view RCs exist to make sure rare bird sightings are assessed, documented and archived in a consistent and transparent way to increase all aspects of knowledge of unusual bird sightings. As far as I've experienced, this is how most/all RCs operate. To achieve this as much details as possible is requested for each record, often more info than one can extract from photos alone, even though they may be sufficient to verify the species in question. This inevitably require some effort from the observer.

You maybe have a different view on the purpose of RCs than I do, but I'd very much like to hear constructive suggestions on how the process could be improved.

 

[Helsinki Birder]

I must admit I struggle a bit following your reasoning. You obviously got some bad history with the Irish committee for which it is difficult for an outsider like me to have any say. My only contact with the IRBC is limited to occasional requests for info on Irish records, to which they have promptly responded. I acknowledge that you may have different experiences.

What I do not manage to get from your linked blog-post (that was very long, and I only skimmed through) is how any conflicts with IBRC have led you to not "engage with rarity Committees wherever". That is of course your decision entirely and if you are of the opinion that such committees serve no purpose, we just have different opinions, which is fine. But if you still think that RCs may have a value, I'd very much like to understand why you have written them all off over bad experiences with just one (?) of them.

It seems like some people believe that the purpose of RCs is to be some kind of "twitching police", which in my opinion is a misunderstanding. In my view RCs exist to make sure rare bird sightings are assessed, documented and archived in a consistent and transparent way to increase all aspects of knowledge of unusual bird sightings. As far as I've experienced, this is how most/all RCs operate. To achieve this as much details as possible is requested for each record, often more info than one can extract from photos alone, even though they may be sufficient to verify the species in question. This inevitably require some effort from the observer.

You maybe have a different view on the purpose of RCs than I do, but I'd very much like to hear constructive suggestions on how the process could be improved.

I actually had a discussion with another Irish birder on this not too long ago.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1415989083801796613

There's a suggestion or two in that thread there.

But one of the things I said there, and I stand by it, is it's not for me to put in the work here. I shouldn't have to make suggestions or lay out a path for reform, when things are, if I may say, blindingly obvious.

I mean come on here! I point out that a current member of the Irish Rare Birds Committee is promoting a known, racist, anti-Semitic conspiracy theory and what?...you can't think of one thing that would improve that particular situation? Nothing blips on the radar?

I have no problem saying what needs to be said in that scenario. He should be dismissed from the panel.

But because he won't be, because people will most likely turn a blind eye, what will instead happen is that the case will again be proven to me that there is a toxicity which surrounds this body.

Owen

 

[Tor Olsen]

I actually had a discussion with another Irish birder on this not too long ago.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1415989083801796613

There's a suggestion or two in that thread there.

But one of the things I said there, and I stand by it, is it's not for me to put in the work here. I shouldn't have to make suggestions or lay out a path for reform, when things are, if I may say, blindingly obvious.

I mean come on here! I point out that a current member of the Irish Rare Birds Committee is promoting a known, racist, anti-Semitic conspiracy theory and what?...you can't think of one thing that would improve that particular situation? Nothing blips on the radar?

I have no problem saying what needs to be said in that scenario. He should be dismissed from the panel.

But because he won't be, because people will most likely turn a blind eye, what will instead happen is that the case will again be proven to me that there is a toxicity which surrounds this body.

Owen

As I wrote, I understand you have bad experiences with the Irish committee, I´m in no position to comment on that.

My question was how/why you apply this grievance to the work of RCs in the rest of the world (ref. "I don't really value Rarity Committees whatsoever") if it only relates to non-bird related issues you have with one specific member of said committee?

 

[Trinovid]

I point out that a current member of the Irish Rare Birds Committee is promoting a known, racist, anti-Semitic conspiracy theory...

Having seen these types of accusations made both rightly and wrongly, I seldom trust them without being able to examine their views myself. Both myself and another member here have been accused of views the other member only was able to make out of thin air because we both disagreed with him on other things totally unrelated.

I agreed with some of your views a few posts back, but think that your emotional posting manner, in view of the grounded and calmly non-provoking post of tor olsen could be more effective if it mirrored his approach a bit more.

 

[Helsinki Birder]

As I wrote, I understand you have bad experiences with the Irish committee, I´m in no position to comment on that.

My question was how/why you apply this grievance to the work of RCs in the rest of the world (ref. "I don't really value Rarity Committees whatsoever") if it only relates to non-bird related issues you have with one specific member of said committee?

It doesn't relate to just one issue with one specific member of course, that is merely the latest example of poor behavior, poor choices etc.

The blog post is there, the Twitter thread I linked is there, there's plenty contained in them which demonstrate a long trend of what the Irish rarity body is and why I feel it needs to go. (Luckily they are doing a fine job of dying slowly).

As I've said, I perceive an unhealthy level of toxicity associated with the Irish body. And would just really rather avoid even the potential for that with any other body.

As for Trinovid saying "accusations being made, rightly or wrongly". You can SEE it. You can see the screenshot. You can go to the poster's Twitter feed. This isn't a he said/she said scenario here.

Owen

 

[Trinovid]

"accusations being made, rightly or wrongly". You can SEE it. You can see the screenshot. You can go to the poster's Twitter feed. This isn't a he said/she said scenario here.

Went to the link and couldn't find anything even closely resembling racism or anything else for that matter, other than some uninteresting ramblings. No idea how long or how many posts I was supposed to review, but I'm sorry. Based on the link you just sent as evidence of the bad in your opponent, I'm going to have to say I just can't buy it. Those accusations shouldn't be thrown around so lightly, and the couple of times I've been accused of racism has come simply by views I have which don't even have anything to do with it; just the lowest hanging fruit on the keyboard.

 

[opisska]

I would just like to note that this diverged very far from my original complaint. I actually think that there should be recording bodies, overseeing the ID of rare birds and I am thankful for they insight i to my own observations.

I only wish it could be done in 21st century way and without typing excessive information into office documents.

 

[Helsinki Birder]

Went to the link and couldn't find anything even closely resembling racism or anything else for that matter, other than some uninteresting ramblings. No idea how long or how many posts I was supposed to review, but I'm sorry. Based on the link you just sent as evidence of the bad in your opponent, I'm going to have to say I just can't buy it. Those accusations shouldn't be thrown around so lightly, and the couple of times I've been accused of racism has come simply by views I have which don't even have anything to do with it; just the lowest hanging fruit on the keyboard.

I didn't say to click the link to see his feed. You would have to go to his Twitter feed for that.
It's also important to note, I haven't laid any accusations of racism down. I have zero clue if he is racist or not.

My exact words, were he is promoting a racist conspiracy theory. These are not necessarily the same thing.

It is nonetheless, a very low bar in terms of how such bodies or their membership behave, to say they shouldn't be promoting conspiracy theories, racist or otherwise.

Call me old fashioned.

Owen