Phylloscopus, Japan (Nagano) (1 Viewer)

[opisska]

I am a bit confused with this bird - the wingbar is very weak but present, primaries stretch out to the next province. So it's maybe Arctic?




I am not entirely sure what is expected here in late July. Some 2200 meters a.s.l. in dense coniferous forest on the ridge of the mountains, Nagano prefecture.

 

[Grahame Walbridge]

Japanese Leaf Warbler, the only member of the Arctic complex present at this location in July.

Jan, the bird is in worn plumage, hence reduced wing bar(s) but still retains yellow to the supercilium and face, at least.

Grahame

 

[opisska]

Ah, the Arctic complex thing, I have forgotten this horrible thing - and Brazil's book is old enough that it mercifully doesn't split it , so it doesn't remind me.

Now this poses an interesting conundrum, because I already claim an "Arctic warbler" from Malaysia - there was a discussion about it here - Malaysia VI: warblers and drongos - where it has been properly pointed out that in principle, this cannot be IDed, so I put it down as Arctic, as a the most likely species. Now it would be a bit hypocritical to count that and this bird as two separate species, as that bird might have been Japanese Leaf Warbler with some small probability.

Now this bird here also cannot be IDed completely sure, because there aren't really any field marks to do so and one has to rely on the probability of presence, right? But it is quite likely to be Japanese Leaf Warbler based on location and time? Maybe I will count this and JLW, but remove the other bird, I have to see it in WP anyway

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

Ah, the Arctic complex thing, I have forgotten this horrible thing - and Brazil's book is old enough that it mercifully doesn't split it , so it doesn't remind me.

Now this poses an interesting conundrum, because I already claim an "Arctic warbler" from Malaysia - there was a discussion about it here - Malaysia VI: warblers and drongos - where it has been properly pointed out that in principle, this cannot be IDed, so I put it down as Arctic, as a the most likely species. Now it would be a bit hypocritical to count that and this bird as two separate species, as that bird might have been Japanese Leaf Warbler with some small probability.

Now this bird here also cannot be IDed completely sure, because there aren't really any field marks to do so and one has to rely on the probability of presence, right? But it is quite likely to be Japanese Leaf Warbler based on location and time? Maybe I will count this and JLW, but remove the other bird, I have to see it in WP anyway

As in virtually all splits of very similar taxa in the past, with efforts and time, birders finally find ways to identify in the field.

I've spent about one year in the Philippines and watched all three Arctic, Japanese Leaf, Kamchatka Leaf Warblers. I published a page (in French) in my personal encyclopedia (that already has about 1700 species) with the last one, you can see the photos here.

I'm not yet confident 100%, and all published photos of Kamtchakta in my website show individuals I also heard confirming the ID. When I saw your pic, before Graham reply, I immediatly ID as Japanese Leaf Warbler. Then I checked Avibase and realized more than 10 Phyllosc are possible there, I skipped as I didn't have time to check them all, especially that half of them are potential lifers...

I'm going back to the Philippines in a couple of weeks, for months. I hope to see more, take more photos and if find more details helping ID in the field, I would share with you guys.

Cheers.

 

[Grahame Walbridge]

Ah, the Arctic complex thing, I have forgotten this horrible thing - and Brazil's book is old enough that it mercifully doesn't split it , so it doesn't remind me.

Now this poses an interesting conundrum, because I already claim an "Arctic warbler" from Malaysia - there was a discussion about it here - Malaysia VI: warblers and drongos - where it has been properly pointed out that in principle, this cannot be IDed, so I put it down as Arctic, as a the most likely species. Now it would be a bit hypocritical to count that and this bird as two separate species, as that bird might have been Japanese Leaf Warbler with some small probability.

Now this bird here also cannot be IDed completely sure, because there aren't really any field marks to do so and one has to rely on the probability of presence, right? But it is quite likely to be Japanese Leaf Warbler based on location and time? Maybe I will count this and JLW, but remove the other bird, I have to see it in WP anyway

Jan, the only resident phylloscopus in this part of Nagano are Japanese Leaf, Sakhalin Leaf and Eastern Crowned Leaf. Sakhalin Leaf is readily eliminated by upperpart tones and bill pattern and Eastern Crowned on head pattern alone.

It's true that separation of this tricky complex is only considered reliable if supported by a sound file (Song/call) but chances that your bird is an out of season Kamchatka Leaf or Arctic Warbler are extremely low. That said, the standards you apply to what is considered 'tickable' are a decision for you and you alone.

Grahame

 

[MacNara]

Hi Opisska:

I think you can be confident in Grahame's comment about birds in Nagano at this season:

Japanese Leaf Warbler, the only member of the Arctic complex present at this location in July.

In Nara where I am, Kamchatka Leaf come through in the first half of June going north, and in the second half of October and early November going south. Since my little patch (full circumference maybe 10km) is a bit of a hotspot (I've seen about 150 species here, and we are a long way from the sea), I was hoping to find Japanese Leaf as well.

But all my way more experienced friends say that it's not possible to ID the three ALW species on sight.

So, I started recording with a simple voice recorder; sometimes I posted here. For several years all I got was Kamchatka (and Sakhalin Leaf a couple of times and Eastern Crowned). But in 2020 (May 10th), I got a bird on photo and recording, which an expert friend agreed was JLW!

So, although I think you can be sure that your Nagano bird was JLW, I have no idea about your Malaysian bird from a few years ago.

I am dubious about Valèry's claim that he has a system for visual differentiation of the three species.

And as Grahame says in the previous post, there are only three Phylloscopus likely in Nagano at this season. I don't know where Valèry got his 'ten' from.

(Nagano, where JLW breeds, is only five hours' drive or so away and we could go for two or three nights - the problem is that my wife would have to book a couple of days's holiday a couple of month's in advance, and there is a high chance of heavy rain all through the trip with no possibility of changing dates, as has happened on two of the three times we have tried at this season.)

===

Nara Prefecture Heijo Palace Site (from when Nara was the capital 710-784) has an exhibition of bird photos from 'our patch' (as I mentioned above) by a friend of mine over this summer. Posters below.

So, Opisska, if you are still in Japan, and passing through Osaka/Kansai area on your way home, then drop me a DM and I'll treat you to lunch or dinner as well as this great photo exhibition.

[Edited to correct number of Phylloscopus species mentioned by Valèry - my mistake.]

 

[Butty]

I am dubious about Valèry's claim that he has a system for visual differentiation of the three species.

I hate to be fair to the chap, but (perhaps a confusion of tenses and second languages)... he doesn't say this.

 

[MacNara]

I am dubious about Valèry's claim that he has a system for visual differentiation of the three species.

I hate to be fair to the chap, but (perhaps a confusion of tenses and second languages)... he doesn't say this.

Well, that's how I interpreted these, perhaps a slight stretch, but he clearly thinks he's getting close:

As in virtually all splits of very similar taxa in the past, with efforts and time, birders finally find ways to identify in the field.

Suggests visual ID not sound, which we already know.

I'm not yet confident 100%...

Suggests a number less than, but close to, 100.

When I saw your pic, before Grahame's reply, I immediately ID'd it as Japanese Leaf Warbler.

Apparently could ID this bird on sight of two (almost identical) photos alone, without location and date information later provided by Grahame.

...if I find more details helping ID in the field, I would share with you guys.

Suggests that some or most details are already decided...

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

Well, that's how I interpreted these, perhaps a slight stretch, but he clearly thinks he's getting close:

Suggests visual ID not sound, which we already know.

Suggests a number less than, but close to, 100.

Apparently could ID this bird on sight of two (almost identical) photos alone, without location and date information later provided by Grahame.

Suggests that some or most details are already decided...

I'm not sure to understanf BF. Butty is the first guy I ignored since 14 years ; but can he still read my messages ? Obviouly, he has reduced skills in bird identification, but a lot of skills to make people lose time for nothoing. Can I hide my messages to him, of my only way to be in peace is to leave BF ?

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello,

no offense you all know, but I cant resist (sorry):

before extremly helpful and excellent comments are burried, please let me edit this thread for you:

first: interesting bird (thanks Jan!) and helpful expert comments about ID from Grahame and Valery, including detailed ID site (thanks!)

second: MacNara"So, Opisska, if you are still in Japan, and passing through Osaka/Kansai area on your way home, then drop me a DM and I'll treat you to lunch or dinner as well as this great photo exhibition." WOW, so nice and if I were you I wouldnt miss it, Jan. And yes, your offer about telephoto-lenses came into my mind again. Thanks once more!

third: maybe the quest for new ID features proposed by Valery and presented here? I hope I read your site right? But there are always new ID features to be discovered, see the recent DB paper. And you all know, that I am very interested in this.

fourth: Butty: helps (really, no irony. You cant imagine how many times I have to use google translate to write a comment here. Thanks google translate and other similar sites!) as a native speaker. I have in the past recieved some PMs that corrected spelling errors and helped me to improve my english. Thanks once more! Also really helpful and important to me!

Better now?

 

[opisska]

===

Nara Prefecture Heijo Palace Site (from when Nara was the capital 710-784) has an exhibition of bird photos from 'our patch' (as I mentioned above) by a friend of mine over this summer. Posters below.

So, Opisska, if you are still in Japan, and passing through Osaka/Kansai area on your way home, then drop me a DM and I'll treat you to lunch or dinner as well as this great photo exhibition.

Oh thay would be definitely cool, but I can't make it, have to be in Nagoya and then have a flight home immediately afterwards.

I was actually somewhat planning to go to Nara as well during the pre-conference trip, until I realized how large this part of Japan actually was

 

[MacNara]

I'm not sure to understanf BF. Butty is the first guy I ignored since 14 years ; but can he still read my messages ? Obviouly, he has reduced skills in bird identification, but a lot of skills to make people lose time for nothoing. Can I hide my messages to him, of my only way to be in peace is to leave BF ?

Valèry:

Am I wrong in thinking that you believe it is possible to differentiate on sight alone the three species of the Arctic Warbler complex? That's how I interpreted your comments which I quoted, and I can't see any other way to interpret them.

None of the people that I know who are much more qualified with these species than I am think that this is possible. Although some seem to think that there are features which are more common for one species rather than another, they still seem to think that because of overlap in these features between the species, and because of individual and seasonal variation (wear and so on) that a purely visual ID isn't possible.

Of course, it would be great if visual ID were possible between these species. And it will certainly be interesting to hear your views, and for you to illustrate these with photos as you mentioned in post #4.

Best regards.

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

edit: yes, I would have used other words than Butty and I must admit my first thought after reading his comment was the post would surely be better without the first half.

Please see my editing above.

 

[MacNara]

Oh thay would be definitely cool, but I can't make it, have to be in Nagoya and then have a flight home immediately afterwards.

I was actually somewhat planning to go to Nara as well during the pre-conference trip, until I realized how large this part of Japan actually was

Next time, then!

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

Hello,

no offense you all know, but I cant resist (sorry):

before extremly helpful and excellent comments are burried, please let me edit this thread for you:

first: interesting bird (thanks Jan!) and helpful expert comments about ID from Grahame and Valery, including detailed ID site (thanks!)

second: MacNara"So, Opisska, if you are still in Japan, and passing through Osaka/Kansai area on your way home, then drop me a DM and I'll treat you to lunch or dinner as well as this great photo exhibition." WOW, so nice and if I were you I wouldnt miss it, Jan. And yes, your offer about telephoto-lenses came into my mind again. Thanks once more!

third: maybe the quest for new ID features proposed by Valery and presented here? I hope I read your site right? But there are always new ID features to be discovered, see the recent DB paper. And you all know, that I am very interested in this.

fourth: Butty: helps (really, no irony. You cant imagine how many times I have to use google translate to write a comment here. Thanks google translate and other similar sites!) as a native speaker. I have in the past recieved some PMs that corrected spelling errors and helped me to improve my english. Thanks once more! Also really helpful and important to me!

Better now?

"third: maybe the quest for new ID features proposed by Valery and presented here? I hope I read your site right? But there are always new ID features to be discovered, see the recent DB paper. And you all know, that I am very interested in this."

I added the link just to show the photos of Kamtchatka Wablers IDed by voice, no more details at this stage I'm afraid. When "my" features for visual ID will me described, I'll do it in English, no worry.

You are experienced and I'm pretty sure you will understand the following feeling. These Arctic Wablers (sensu lato) in Philippines are sometimes abundant. I've seen some dozens more in Indonesia too and a few in Thailand. After months there, I knew the name of the species even before hearing the calls, but I usually didn't know why. I have this kind of feelings since 1991 when I was trying to identify flying Meadow Pipit from Tree Pipit and Brambling from Chaffinch, while counting migrants in Belgium.

With time, we usually manage to put words on that. Now we almost all know how to ID a Tripit from a Mipit, but at the time...
I bet it will be the same with these Phyllosc too. Do you remember that Chiffchaff and Willow Warblers were said "undistinguishable" (except by voice) in the Peterson guide before 1990 ?

The process was well on the way when it was interrupted by the pandemic, I had to leave the area and find a country where birding freely was possible (it was Mexico)... I've now spent 3 years in Central America. I feel I forgot most about Philippines birds, but confident I will "recover" quickly... hopefully.

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

Valèry:

Am I wrong in thinking that you believe it is possible to differentiate on sight alone the three species of the Arctic Warbler complex? That's how I interpreted your comments which I quoted, and I can't see any other way to interpret them.

None of the people that I know who are much more qualified with these species than I am think that this is possible. Although some seem to think that there are features which are more common for one species rather than another, they still seem to think that because of overlap in these features between the species, and because of individual and seasonal variation (wear and so on) that a purely visual ID isn't possible.

Of course, it would be great if visual ID were possible between these species. And it will certainly be interesting to hear you views, and for you to illustrate these with photos as you mentioned in post #4.

Best regards.

I think my previous post to Alexander replied to this (I guess our messages were crossposted - I wonder if this word exist in English). I'm sure we can, I'm not yet able to tell exactly how. I hope that, going back to Phils, I'll find out.

Regards (I remember some excellent threads about African birds with you).