Latest IOC Diary Updates (4 Viewers)

[Swindon Addick]

Mar 19 Post split of Angola Greenbul from White-throated Greenbul.

Also some additional common name changes for White-eyes.

Angola Greenbul Phyllastrephus viridiceps is split from White-throated Greenbul P. albigularis based on differences in vocalizations and morphology (del Hoyo & Collar 2016; HBW/BirdLife).

Both the above greenbul species are now monotypic.

Change English name of Zosterops grayi from Pearl-bellied White-eye to Kai Besar White-eye following HBW/BirdLife and Eaton et al. (2021).
Change English name of Zosterops uropygialis from Golden-bellied White-eye to Kai Kecil White-eye following HBW/BirdLife and Eaton et al. (2021).

 

[Andy Adcock]

Angola Greenbul Phyllastrephus viridiceps is split from White-throated Greenbul P. albigularis based on differences in vocalizations and morphology (del Hoyo & Collar 2016; HBW/BirdLife).

Both the above greenbul species are now monotypic.

Change English name of Zosterops grayi from Pearl-bellied White-eye to Kai Besar White-eye following HBW/BirdLife and Eaton et al. (2021).
Change English name of Zosterops uropygialis from Golden-bellied White-eye to Kai Kecil White-eye following HBW/BirdLife and Eaton et al. (2021).

Interested to know why the Bahasa language is being used in preference to English here, for those that don't know, besar, large kecil, small.

 

[opisska]

Well these are just the names of the islands. Should we translate all local names to English?

Also, "Bahasa" means "language" in Bahasa Indonesia. Calling it "Bahasa" is the no. 1 joke about foreigners in Indonesia

 

[Markus Lagerqvist]

Well these are just the names of the islands. Should we translate all local names to English?

Also, "Bahasa" means "language" in Bahasa Indonesia. Calling it "Bahasa" is the no. 1 joke about foreigners in Indonesia

Also avoids the confusion whether small/large is in regard to the island or the bird - "Small Kai White-eye" and "Large Kai White-eye" could easily be interpreted as if there's a small and a large white-eye.

We have the same names in Swedish; "kaibesarglasögonfågel" and "kaikecilglasögonfågel".

 

[Andy Adcock]

Also, "Bahasa" means "language" in Bahasa Indonesia. Calling it "Bahasa" is the no. 1 joke about foreigners in Indonesia

Yes, with direct translations, little and large or greater and lesser and yes, we should translate if this is to be the 'English' language list.

 

[Xenospiza]

Also avoids the confusion whether small/large is in regard to the island or the bird - "Small Kai White-eye" and "Large Kai White-eye" could easily be interpreted as if there's a small and a large white-eye.

We have the same names in Swedish; "kaibesarglasögonfågel" and "kaikecilglasögonfågel".

Current preference in English seems to be to use the Indonesian proper names for these islands ("Kai Besar" and "Kai Kecil") which is indeed clearer than "Great Kai" and "Little Kai".
Otherwise you'd be tempted to think of a similar situation as with the two Lifou White-eyes which do differ in size.
For those with linguistic interest: using the local language (Evav/Keiese), you'd get Nuhu Yuut White-eye and Nuhu Roa White-eye.

 

[thomasdonegan]

There have been a bunch of additional English name updates too (usually not posted on the diary page).

Verreaux's Monal-Partridge	Tetraophasis obscurus	Chestnut-throated Monal-Partridge	Change English name of Tetraophasis obscurus from Verreaux's Monal-Partridge to Chestnut-throated Monal-Partridge to align with other major world bird liists.
Szechenyi's Monal-Partridge	Tetraophasis szechenyii	Buff-throated Monal-Partridge	Change English name of Tetraophasis szechenyii from Szechenyi's Monal-Partridge to Buff-throated Monal-Partridge to align with other major world bird liists.
Rusty-breasted Cuckoo	Cacomantis sepulcralis	Sunda Brush Cuckoo	Change English name of Cacomantis sepulcralis from Rusty-breasted Cuckoo to Sunda Brush Cuckoo with the split of C. virescens (Wu et al. 2022).
Brush Cuckoo	Cacomantis variolosus	Australian Brush Cuckoo	Change English name of Cacomantis variolosus from Brush Cuckoo to Australian Brush Cuckoo with its spit into multiple species.
Orange Fruit Dove	Ptilinopus victor	Orange Dove	Change English name of Orange Fruit Dove Ptilinopus victor to Orange Dove to align with other major world bird lists.
Golden Fruit Dove	Ptilinopus luteovirens	Golden Dove	Change English name of Golden Fruit Dove Ptilinopus luteovirens to Golden Dove to align with other major world bird lists.
Whistling Fruit Dove	Ptilinopus layardi	Whistling Dove	Change English name of Whistling Fruit Dove Ptilinopus layardi to Whistling Dove to align with other major world bird lists.
Hombron's Kingfisher	Actenoides hombroni	Blue-capped Kingfisher	Change English name of Hombron's Kingfisher Actenoides hombroni to Blue-capped Kingfisher to align with other major world bird lists.
Winchell's Kingfisher	Todiramphus winchelli	Rufous-lored Kingfisher	Change English name of Winchell's Kingfisher Todiramphus winchelli to Rufous-lored Kingfisher to align with other major world bird lists.

A noteworthy elimination of 4 English name patronyms, all of which honour European or US persons for Indo-Chinese birds (the great French ornithologist Verreaux should need no introduction; from google of the others, looks like another French scientist, a US geologist and a Hungarian nobleman).

I refer to the other BF discussions on that topic...

 

[Kirk Roth]

A noteworthy elimination of 4 English name patronyms, all of which honour European or US persons for Indo-Chinese birds (the great French ornithologist Verreaux should need no introduction; from google of the others, looks like another French scientist, a US geologist and a Hungarian nobleman).

I refer to the other BF discussions on that topic...

Presumably these four plus the rest of these changes (except the Brush Cuckoo) are an alignment with Clements. Just getting ahead of any knee-jerk reaction equivocating this with the AOS common names situation.

 

[opisska]

Yes, with direct translations, little and large or greater and lesser and yes, we should translate if this is to be the 'English' language list.

But these are geographical names. When you go to a travel agent in England, do you demand tickets to Good Winds, The Angels or Smoky Bay? You know I am in favor of more indigenous names in general, but even if I temporarily assumed your position that the names should be English, surely geographical names should still have an exception to avoid an absolute havoc of confusion?

 

[Welsh Peregrine]

In this case at least, I prefer the Bahasa island names to their translations; it helps me to visualise the key fact that they are named after their island homes. Also thank you Birdforum for teaching me about “Smoky Bay” (after finding there is a place of this name in Australia)!

 

[Andy Adcock]

In this case at least, I prefer the Bahasa island names to their translations; it helps me to visualise the key fact that they are named after their island homes. Also thank you Birdforum for teaching me about “Smoky Bay” (after finding there is a place of this name in Australia)!

The islands are the Kai islands, no translation would change that.

 

[Andy Adcock]

But these are geographical names. When you go to a travel agent in England, do you demand tickets to Good Winds, The Angels or Smoky Bay? You know I am in favor of more indigenous names in general, but even if I temporarily assumed your position that the names should be English, surely geographical names should still have an exception to avoid an absolute havoc of confusion?

This is comparing apples and oranges, two, totally different situations which are not comparable and btw, you do hear Americans talk about 'the City of Angels' occasionally.

 

[opisska]

In this case at least, I prefer the Bahasa island names to their translations; it helps me to visualise the key fact that they are named after their island homes. Also thank you Birdforum for teaching me about “Smoky Bay” (after finding there is a place of this name in Australia)!

Also, "Bahasa" means "language" in Bahasa Indonesia. Calling it "Bahasa" is the no. 1 joke about foreigners in Indonesia

Maybe we will get there eventually

 

[l_raty]

In this case at least, I prefer the Bahasa island names to their translations; it helps me to visualise the key fact that they are named after their island homes.

Would be interesting to know which proportion of English-speakers pronounce "Kecil" the way it ought to be ?

 

[njlarsen]

I for one do not have any clue how it ought to be pronounced ...
Niels

 

[Paul Clapham]

This is comparing apples and oranges, two, totally different situations which are not comparable and btw, you do hear Americans talk about 'the City of Angels' occasionally.

Except that you did compare the situations yourself. I'm going to continue to use "Buenos Aires" for the capital of Argentina.

 

[Xenospiza]

I for one do not have any clue how it ought to be pronounced ...
Niels

kecil - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

Stress is on the second syllable and the "e" is pronounced as a schwa (the same is true for besar).

 

[l_raty]

Stress is on the second syllable and the "e" is pronounced as a schwa (the same is true for besar).

My first questionment was about the c, actually.

 

[Xenospiza]

My first questionment was about the c, actually.

I assumed that could be the case: the link has a sound clip.

 

[pbjosh]

This will be a shitty attempt at transliteration (you can find pronunciation vids on youtube I'm certain) but roughly

keh-CHEEL or kuh-CHEEL
and
beh-SAR or buh-SAR

is what those words have sounded like to me in my rough and tumble exposure to Bahasa Indonesia / Indonesian / Malaysian whatever each of us wants to call it.