Gull hybrid?? (1 Viewer)

[Matt Slaymaker]

Herring x Glauc??? Do Herring and Iceland interbreed?

Pics taken at the local landfill yesterday

Any comments welcome

 

[JANJ]

Hi Matt.

Might be Herring x Glaucous.

http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ind_ufo.php

JanJ

 

[Steven Astley]

What about Kumeliens. Suppose the bill is too long for one thing. Just random thoughts from larusophobe.

 

[Steven Astley]

No need to answer checked collins realised kumiliens is the iceland (not glaucous) with dark tail. Anyway another question why is it not a pure Glaucous.

 

[dan pointon]

No need to answer checked collins realised kumiliens is the iceland (not glaucous) with dark tail. Anyway another question why is it not a pure Glaucous.

Glaucous would be a more biscuity colour in general, as well as having a larger, more thick set bill (usually pink), would be generally stockier in build and the head would be larger. Aside from that the primaries would be all white/pale bisciut colour, and none of the scapulars and other feathers would be this dark. An interesting hybrid and not at all like most of the pics of 'Nelsons Gull' that i've seen.

 

[Gentoo]

Looks like a good possibility of Nelson's to me.

 

[Taiga Woods]

Hi
I think this type of bird is thought to be an extreme argentatus Herring Gull. You occasionally see adults with much reduced black pigmentation in the wingtip amongst northern argentatus and I gather these birds result from 1st years looking like your bird. As it looks structurally like a Herring Gull (no obvious Glauc influence) I would say that this is what it is. That is what we presume them to be in the NE, rightly or wrongly!
Cheers

 

[Steven Astley]

After refreshing myself looking at photos of the more powerful looking glaucous I agree structurally it looks like a pale Herring but who knows with gulls certainly not me. Good refresher thread for me, although personally I would try to avoid the dodgy ones.

 

[B Lagopus]

Interesting bird. It does lack the Glauc bill, which is nice to see when claiming a hybird, as opposed to a pale Herring. However, the eye is beady, the body is bulky, and the primary projection is on the short side -- all of which are good for the Nelson's theory. Also of interest is the tertials being barred rather than dark centered, the greater coverts being mostly white, the thinness of the pale bars on the mantle, and the near lack of patterning on the breast and belly. Again, all good for some Glauc parentage.

Put it all together, and I would say the case for hybrid is quite respectable -- but not definitive. The bird does likely fall at the outer extreme of variation for Herring as well. Tail shots would be particularly helpful if there are any more photos?

 

[tittletattler]

Is Nelson's Gull a hybrid between Glaucous and Argentatus/Argenteus? I always thought that it was a hybrid between Glaucous and Smithsonian Herring?

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Gentoo]

Is Nelson's Gull a hybrid between Glaucous and Argentatus/Argenteus? I always thought that it was a hybrid between Glaucous and Smithsonian Herring?

Cheers,

Andy

From what I understand it's a hybrid between either of these as it was named before the Europeans decided to split them.

 

[DEREK CHARLES]

Birds like this turn up every winter in NI and continue to amuse and bemuse me! Some have obvious glauc features and are obvious hybrids and others show no obvious glauc features and may well be just pale argantatus. This bird i agree with is a hybrid.

Regards

Derek

ps i think Nelsons Gull is a Smiths x Glauc hybrid

 

[KnockerNorton]

Just a thought - are hybrid gulls not fertile? If so, how far down the line can you detect hybrids? Are all hybrids assumed to be first generation? For instance, maybe this bird is a pure herring x glauc/herring hybrid?

 

[JANJ]

Taiga Woods puts the finger on (if you like) the problem by saying that there´s 'no obvious Glaucous influence' to this gull. It´s often argued that some pale 1st years Herring Gulls may simly be pale (or leucistic) Herring Gulls, or simply Glaucous Gulls with darker wing-tip and tail. The clue should be to find as many Glaucous characters as possible such as lack of obvious dark tail bar, paler greyish-brown primaries and short primary projection (although most claimed hybrids on the Norwegian site which I linked above shows more or less quite a normal p-projection for a Herring Gull), which also shows some that are very similar to the gull here. By reading the introduction to the 'hybrid page' in the link refered to you get a good guidence to what is considered to make a fairly reasonable claim for a HG x GG.

Perhaps this one would make some doubt it´s claimed hybrid origin!

http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ufo/hybrid_1w_05.php

http://www.theochem.org/Raunvisindathing06/abstracts/fv-en.pdf

JanJ

 

[marklhawkes]

Herring x Glauc??? Do Herring and Iceland interbreed?

I think Iceland x Herring Gulls are considered to be very rare (unlike the more frequent Glaucous x Herring hybrids). This is probably related to the differing breeding ranges. Not sure about the bird in question though. If it showed a clear pink base to the bill, it would suggest a more likely hybrid origin, therefore this bird may be just a very pale Herring Gull.

 

[JANJ]

Just noticed Dereks gulls, notice gull 2+4 and somewhat nr 5 with short p-projection.

JanJ

 

[Th_SQ]

For me this is most probably a nice example of very pale argentatus Herring Gull. I don't see any obvious pro-Glaucous characters (bill, structure, ...) and such pale argentatus are not that rare (I see several such gulls every winter in northwest Europe (last one 5 days ago !)).

 

[Gentoo]

Just a thought - are hybrid gulls not fertile? If so, how far down the line can you detect hybrids? Are all hybrids assumed to be first generation? For instance, maybe this bird is a pure herring x glauc/herring hybrid?

I believe most hybrids are fertile up to a point. Not sure of all the details but I read a long time ago about fertility in Olympic Gulls (WesternxGlaucous-Winged). F1's generally are fertile with fertility decreasing through successive generations. I believe they are fertile until about the third generation at which point if there hasn't been any backcrossing then these birds would be sterile, or something like that. Fertility in all hybrid birds, not just gulls is extremely complicated.

 

[Gentoo]

I think Iceland x Herring Gulls are considered to be very rare (unlike the more frequent Glaucous x Herring hybrids). This is probably related to the differing breeding ranges. Not sure about the bird in question though. If it showed a clear pink base to the bill, it would suggest a more likely hybrid origin, therefore this bird may be just a very pale Herring Gull.

It is believed to be very rare that these two hybridize. In large part because Herring (both American and European), breed in different habitats even in the areas of the small overlap in range. Iceland is said to prefer cliffs where as Herring more level areas.

 

[Th_SQ]

Fertility in all hybrid birds, not just gulls is extremely complicated.

Agree ! We have an hybrid Canada x White-fronted goose (not even the same genus ...) at my local patch. It back-crossed with Canada producing second generation hybrids (end of the story for now).

Gillham's in their book on Hybrid Ducks describe an even more surprising creature : a trigen between Shelduck, Pintail and Red-crested Pochard

No Iceland x Herring Gull is known (hopefully !)