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Gamekeepers hate raptors!!! (1 Viewer)

seawatcher

Well-known member
Just been surfing and found the Scottish Gamekeepers Assocaition webite (scottishgamekeepers.co.uk). Never realised that they could write so much drivel about raptors, the RSPB or our rights to enjoy seeing birds in their natural environment. These people are SICK!!! They see RSPB as some kind of spy, and raptors as a threat to their livelihoods.
 
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That site made me angry, too. Those people cannot see beyond the end of their own very short noses and are as blinkered as the pigeon fanciers in their loathing of all things raptorish.
 
seawatcher said:
Just been surfing and found the Scottish Gamekeepers Assocaition webite (scottishgamekeepers.co.uk). Never realised that they could write so much drivel about raptors, the RSPB or our rights to enjoy seeing birds in their natural environment. These people are SICK!!! They see RSPB as some kind of spy, and raptors as a threat to their livelihoods.

It's all too easy to tar all with the same brush, but believe it or not there are actually quite a few "gamekeepers" who respect wildlife and work closely with conservationists.
Remember one important fact here.....the gamekeeper is just an employee and is merely acting on behalf of "traditionalist" estate landowners still living in victorian times. These estates are still run with the view that raptors are vermin and the keeper is expected to do his job..........or lose it, along with his house. These estates are quite happy to support these values and "look after" keepers who follow suit.
The only way this will eventually stop is when the whole of this antiquated system of land management is brought into the 21st centuary and wildlife is actually seen to have a value. Hopefully estates will eventually start to realise that wildlife tourism itself may well actually bring them as much income as shooting.
I have just spent the last few days with paying guests being taken out by an estate manager to see Eagles. Birds the estate in question is proud of having and ensures their protection. Not all Scottish landowners are that bad and gamekeeping can still be done without wiping out every raptor in sight.
Hopefully things are changing slowly and the more of us who show an interest in visiting these places using the services of the local land managers in order to get unique views the better.
I still find it hard to believe that nobody has yet thought to set up a decent hide viewing a Scottish Golden Eagle's nest......they'd make a nice little profit, believe me.

JP
 
seawatcher said:
Just been surfing and found the Scottish Gamekeepers Assocaition webite (scottishgamekeepers.co.uk). Never realised that they could write so much drivel about raptors, the RSPB or our rights to enjoy seeing birds in their natural environment. These people are SICK!!! They see RSPB as some kind of spy, and raptors as a threat to their livelihoods.

Tis true I'm afraid that the RSPB is sometimes also seen as an 'English' organisation imposing its will on the provinces. Happily, attitudes are changing because when people bother to talk (as opposed to shout at us from a distance), they find that we are open and have nothing to hide. Many landowners and gamekeepers are law-abiding anyway and have no need to see the RSPB as the enemy. In fact, the RSPB is not a reactionary organisation and does not support or oppose game shooting. This is seen as a fudge by some people but think about it for a moment - the RSPB is a conservation organisation (not welfare, not really environmental although we have an opinion for obvious reasons).

Game rearing creates and maintains habitats that would be of no use to anyone else and they cannot even be managed for upland grazing. Climax vegetation in the UK is nearly always woodland of some kind and that is what we would have in the Scottish Highlands. This is not making the case for game shooting BTW, merely explaining why the RSPB does not oppose the practise. In any case, it is completely legal under the Wildlife & Countryside Act 1981 whether we oppose the moral side or not. Actually, game should produce food for the pot irrespective of whether it is necessary as a nutrition source in the UK (it is not) and it is to be hoped the industry cracks down on surplus shooting (burying most of the pheasants that are shot) because this breaks the definition (that is for the people within the industry to deal with and does NOT reflect an RSPB view just an Ian Peters observation).

Coming back to the Wildlife & Countryside Act 1981, it is illegal to shoot raptors (but not Corvids although I wish there was a bit more clarity on this issue for another reason) despite what landowners think. I do not sympathise with gamekeepers that are tempted to kill raptors but I understand the pressures they are under. Having evidence of a dead raptor is the most obvious way of demonstrating to clients that good management is being practised. It does not seem to matter that this demonstrates no such thing because the majority (honestly) of hunters are urbanites with no knowledge of the countryside. Even industry studies have shown that raptor predation on gamebirds is well within the losses to weather and starvation and removal of raptors has no discernible effect on yields. Nevertheless Lord Bang-Bang feels duty bound to put pressure on his gamekeeper and the latter sometimes yields. That does not make it right anymore than the vast number of people that disagree with UK speed limits. It is criminal law at the end of the day and there are (and should not be) no exceptions.

If it seems I support shooting then it goes to show how one can present a dispassionate argument because I am morally opposed but from a true bioological perspective (as opposed to a welfare one) there is nothing wrong with shooting.
 
To make matters worse, I have just been reading this report on a BBC website about a gamekeeper who was fined just £5,500 for killing 20 birds of prey.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3597952.stm

Hardly a deterrent is it? The website also gives everybody an opportunity to vote on whether penalties for wildlife crime are tough enough. I have already voted and hope many more of you will as well. It's hardly going to change things overnight but, it all helps!

Steve
 
bristolbirder said:
To make matters worse, I have just been reading this report on a BBC website about a gamekeeper who was fined just £5,500 for killing 20 birds of prey.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3597952.stm

Hardly a deterrent is it? The website also gives everybody an opportunity to vote on whether penalties for wildlife crime are tough enough. I have already voted and hope many more of you will as well. It's hardly going to change things overnight but, it all helps!

Steve

Would it make you feel any better if the report had said that the gamekeeper had been fined the equivalent of a year's wages, because that's about what it amounts to? Just think how we might react if we had to forfeit a whole year's income in one go? Anyway, what's the point of fining the bloke any more than that if he can't pay it because he hasn't got a job? He could have been slapped in 'clink' I suppose but then we would all have the expense of keeping him - and his family!

And before the hounds start baying for my blood, I'm not connected with hunting or shooting in any way, shape or form - I'm just being a realist.
 
Anthony Morton said:
Would it make you feel any better if the report had said that the gamekeeper had been fined the equivalent of a year's wages, because that's about what it amounts to? Just think how we might react if we had to forfeit a whole year's income in one go? Anyway, what's the point of fining the bloke any more than that if he can't pay it because he hasn't got a job? He could have been slapped in 'clink' I suppose but then we would all have the expense of keeping him - and his family!

And before the hounds start baying for my blood, I'm not connected with hunting or shooting in any way, shape or form - I'm just being a realist.

So what should have happened - slap his wrists, tell him he's been very naughty and that he must not do this again?
 
Elizabeth Bigg said:
So what should have happened - slap his wrists, tell him he's been very naughty and that he must not do this again?

Hi Elizabeth,

No, certainly not. In my opinion what the court did was to impose a sentence that will (hopefully) be harsh enough to teach the gamekeeper (sorry, that's probably ex-gamekeeper by now!) a severe lesson, while representing a sum that is likely to take him some considerable time and difficulty to pay off. The fine could have been set at £1 million, or even £10 million but that would be both ridiculous and unrealistic. No, they've hit him where it hurts and, better still, where it will be a strong lesson to any others considering similar action.

When it comes to slapping naughty boys on the wrist, that's the prerogative of some of the softer magistrates south of the border - but then they usually pack them off on a month's all-expenses paid safari to Africa into the bargain. Now that really will teach them a lesson - that crime pays BIG TIME. After all, we mustn't upset the little dears, must we?
 
Passing sentence, Sheriff James Farrell said he had taken into account that Muir was a first offender and had pleaded guilty.

In other words, this was the first time he had been caught!

Solicitor Mark Harrower said: "He felt he was doing his job, but in no way was he asked by the estate to do this.

He would say this wouldn't he - maybe he'll be pensioned off with enough to live on comfortably.

I just don't believe a lot of this, and I reckon the true story will never be known by the general public.
 
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if it seems I support shooting then it goes to show how one can present a dispassionate argument because I am morally opposed but from a true bioological perspective (as opposed to a welfare one) there is nothing wrong with shooting.[/QUOTE]

A reasonable position to take in my view. There can be no doubt that shooting 'interests' have contributed much, much more to wildlife conservation than they have taken out. The Game Conservancy Trust, which is funded entirely by the shooting fraternity, has probably done more to advance the welfare of wild bird populations in the UK than any other organisation, including the RSPB. There are massive financial incentives now for farmers and landowners to sign up to 'agri-environment' schemes which will return the countryside to a less intensive form of management. The Game Conservancy trust has virtually written many of the prescriptions in these schemes. Through objective study, and impartial analysis, they have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that 'enlightened self interest' is the most sensible way forward. In other words, do not despise the man who shoots, or the man who owns land that is shot over, for he has the best possible reason to look after the land in the way that you would like him to.

Likewise, Gamekeepering in general, and predator control in particular, are the subject of current research to establish, objectively, what effect they have on reared and wild bird populations. There will always be individual problems, and killing of protected species has no place on a modern shoot, but please do not label Gamekeepers as evil people. Problems generally only occur on Estates where high numbers of birds are shot, and where there are large commercial interests at stake. But there are significant movements within the shooting industry to deter such situations, and to encourage a more 'sustainable' approach.
 
it's a tough, low paid job.

financially there's a lot at stake on shooting estates - not at all surprising some things described above happen. Hard to be too harsh on a bloke trying to bring some cash in, perhaps in an area where there's not a lot else to do. Perhaps the fines should be levied against the employer but this would be very hard to prove.

it's a shame estates rely on money brought in from shooting......and if they don't then they really ought to stop killing stuff. Make a keeps job a lot easier....
 
I have to say, I think the hills we visited in Northumberland could hold a few hen harriers without them doing massive harm to the game birds... Even the farmers we spoke to there seemed to feel the gamekeepers were sometimes overly zealous (and foxhunting is a none starter there as the foxes are exterminated as vermin).
 
Mmmm, a few interesting comments.
"the gamekeeper is just an employee and is merely acting on behalf of "traditionalist" estate landowners still living in Victorian times. These estates are still run with the view that raptors are vermin and the keeper is expected to do his job"

In the second half of the 19th centuary, some estates actually paid keepers extra, at Christmas, for the various raptors that were breeding on the estates. They were classed as natural health indicators. It was only when the money from shooting came along, and subsequent numbers of prey species dropped, that attitude changed against the raptors etc which were then seen to be in conflict with the potential earnings of the said estates.

"I think the hills we visited in Northumberland could hold a few hen harriers without them doing massive harm to the game birds"

There are numerous parts of the U.K. which could hold raptors, but the birds do not breed there. In these instances, this is nothing to do with gamekeepers, but with habitat choice of the raptor species.

"(and foxhunting is a none starter there, as the foxes are exterminated as vermin)."

There is an estate in the North East of Scotland. Part of this estate was handed over to a national trust. One of the first things to go were the keepers. The explosion of the fox population led to the creation of a "wildlife wilderness" within the estate boundaries. The neighbouring estates were then effected by the overspill of the foxes. We watched 2 Foxes on Christmas day trying to catch a sheep. It was like a cowboy wagon-train being surrounded by a pair of emaciated Indians. In the end, one of the Foxes was shot by the keeper. Considering the condition it was in, realistically, it was for the better. A major nature reserve in the North East also had to initiate a major Fox cull, due to overwhelming numbers, and the damage they were doing.

"Solicitor Mark Harrower said: "He felt he was doing his job, but in no way was he asked by the estate to do this.""

No estate manager or owner would admit to knowing what was going on, if it was financially detremental to the said estate. They then would also be liable, so neither party is going to admit collusion.

"Tis true I'm afraid that the RSPB is sometimes also seen as an 'English' organisation imposing its will on the provinces. Happily, attitudes are changing"

Interesting comment. I took note of a piece in the media, (August 2004) regarding the RSPB being one of the largest independant landowners in Scotland, but being an English based charity. It would now seem that questions are now being asked in Edinburgh with reference to what Scotland actually gets out of the RSPB owning so much tracts of land here.

Returning to the fine imposed on the keeper. Can anyone actually put forward a viable solution to the problem of raptor -vs- certain sporting estates. I would think not. This has, and will go on, as long as money, and estate viability is involved.
Do you license everyone, as in car drivers. Have a points system. For every sucessfull prosecution, there is a points endorsement. Certain number of points, loss of license to practice keepering or land management. Ban estates from having shoots for a certain number of years.
Can you really se that happeneing.
Me thinks not.
Just look at who owns said estates.
And what about the estates which are capable, on the face of it, but do not hold certain raprors. How can you force them to have certain breeding birds of prey, if the birds do not naturally wish to be there. Fine them also??

Conflict will always exist. It's in man's nature.


Malky.
 
Foxhunter said:
The Game Conservancy Trust, which is funded entirely by the shooting fraternity, has probably done more to advance the welfare of wild bird populations in the UK than any other organisation, including the RSPB. There are massive financial incentives now for farmers and landowners to sign up to 'agri-environment' schemes which will return the countryside to a less intensive form of management. The Game Conservancy trust has virtually written many of the prescriptions in these schemes.

There will always be individual problems, and killing of protected species has no place on a modern shoot, but please do not label Gamekeepers as evil people. Problems generally only occur on Estates where high numbers of birds are shot, and where there are large commercial interests at stake.

Just a minor correction here, substitute the word "welfare" for "conservation" and I would not disagaree with you. However, it is worth pointing out that the conservation of birds is only a by-product of the industry. I think we have to stop short of saying that gamekeepers actively set out to conserve wild birds. More important to the shoot is the maintenance of the habitat and this just happens to be good for wild birds. I doubt if anyone in the industry really cares if there are crested tits on the land or not. Don't be so dismissive of the RSPB in that way (I realise that was not meant as a harsh comment and it was pretty accurate asa statement anyway ;) ) either because the society remit was not really towards researching helpful farming techniques but it has. Many of the initiatives that are now being put forward started life in Cambridgeshire and were promoted in Westminster by Lodge personnel. The RSPB has rarely been credited with this but who cares? The aim is conservation of our declining birds and it does not matter about credit at the end of the day.

In my eyes, the blame has never rested with the gamekeeper but with the landowner who often has no knowledge of the land. This is not a class comment BTW but we have seen so many TV programmes where the portrayal is of a caring and knowledgeable landowner. In reallity, the squire (or whatever he is called) probably never goes out on the land when the cameras are not there. OK this is a deliberate tongue-in-cheek comment but a few interviews I have seen have laboured point that too many landowners do not understand population dynamics. The classic for me was when Johnny (forgethisname) from Clarrissa and the Countryman was allowed to label sparrowhawks as flying rats - sheer rhetoric! I had a long conversation with a shooter in my local one night (I was disappointed to break of to play Petanque) and we are now on very good terms. Steve (he won't read this) obviously knew his stuff regarding the countryside but he had his areas of rhetoric yet was quite willing to listen to what I had to say over raptors. To get back to point, it is a shame that landowners are rarely prosecuted but isn't that like drugs? The street seller and user get hit more often than the importer.
 
alcedo.atthis said:
"Tis true I'm afraid that the RSPB is sometimes also seen as an 'English' organisation imposing its will on the provinces. Happily, attitudes are changing"

Interesting comment. I took note of a piece in the media, (August 2004) regarding the RSPB being one of the largest independant landowners in Scotland, but being an English based charity. It would now seem that questions are now being asked in Edinburgh with reference to what Scotland actually gets out of the RSPB owning so much tracts of land here.


Malky.

Two points on this one. (As far as I am aware) The RSPB owns very little land in Scotland because it cannot do so. Most of the land is owned by SNH (and others) but is actively managed by the RSPB, which is quite a different situation politically speaking. This contrasts heavily with the situation in England where the RSPB can and does own land (Wales is somewhere in between and some of the reserves are leased to the RSPB). The second point is that Scottish issues are managed by RSPB Scotland, employing predominantly Scottish people. Indeed, most of the RSPB is managed by the regions and The Lodge merely happens to be the HQ and therefore, the site of admin.
 
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Foxhunter said:
Problems generally only occur on Estates where high numbers of birds are shot, and where there are large commercial interests at stake. But there are significant movements within the shooting industry to deter such situations, and to encourage a more 'sustainable' approach.

Foxy, would it be fair to say that there is a big difference between someone going out to nab a brace for the pot and an organised shoot where a ton of birds are flushed so a bunch of well heeled city types (mass over generalisation!!) can play space invaders?
 
Ian Peters said:
Two points on this one. (As far as I am aware) The RSPB owns very little land in Scotland because it cannot do so. Most of the land is owned by SNH (and others) but is actively managed by the RSPB, which is quite a different situation politically speaking. This contrasts heavily with the situation in England where the RSPB can and does own land (Wales is somewhere in between and some of the reserves are leased to the RSPB). The second point is that Scottish issues are managed by RSPB Scotland, employing predominantly Scottish people. Indeed, most of the RSPB is managed by the regions and The Lodge merely happens to be the HQ and therefore, the site of admin.
Wished the RSPB owned more land In Scotland, particularly in the central belt where most Scots live. How about a nice big reedbed reserve by the Forth or Clyde........ bring Bitterns to the Jocks! ;)
 
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