Common or Parrot Crossbills? (1 Viewer)

[Lawts]

I first saw the Parrot Crossbills at Holt in November last year, when they were by the main car park, and the identification for me and those present seemed fairly straightforward. All displayed large bills and were seen to rip off cones and eat the lot. I had very close views and took some nice shots.

I went back yesterday and saw crossbill sp. at the new site further down the road by the rough car park, and it didn't seem as straightforward. Despite the good weather and plenty of observers, many didn't seem sure as photo's were shared around. Some there were definitely claiming some birds as Parrot. Unfortunately I was in the wrong place at the wrong time when they came down to puddles to drink and gave good views. There was a flock of c.15 birds - I definitely saw fourteen together at one point, but they did get dispersed quite a bit through the day. The news services added to the debate as someone reported there were at least two Parrots, suggesting I suppose that the others might not be.

Someone on site was suggesting that the bright pink rump contrasting strongly with the darker mantle was a pro Parrot feature, as was the less bright plumage of males. Not sure if plumage is a feature that can be used as part of the overall picture. A tour guide in the afternoon was happy Parrots were calling from the trees.

I took some shots in the morning of part of the flock and these are attached. I'd like to invite comments. On one shot of the male, the lower mandible can clearly be seen protruding, which I thought was an unusual Parrot feature. The birds seem quite bulky and bull-necked.

The birds were distant so the shots aren't great and are heavily cropped.

Edit: The news services reporting 15 Parrots present yesterday 17th. A comment on the Norfolk forum says 24 Parrots in area and 6 Common.

Thanks.

 

[JHDraytonbassettpits]

Parrot Crossbill IMO

 

[James Lowther]

Can't help with the id but the apparent protruding lower mandible on the 3rd pic across shouldn't be a problem. It's closer to a head on shot than full profile.
James

 

[gerdwichers8]

Hello,

to approach the featuristics of the bill there are few hints that can tell between the two species. I do not know how to tell Scottish.
In Red Crossbill first, the surface of the totall bill is not overwhellming and often the ratio between billdepth and billlength favours more the depth in Parrot, persistingly so over the full length; if not or less so, the totall bill surface might be even more overwhellming; second, the lower mandible looked upon to the sides adds not much to the depth of the totall billbase in Red. In Parrot the depth to the lower mandible is approaching in depth to the upper, and division in surface between both upper and lower is more equal. To the underside still the same is found in width of the base: wide in Parrot to the base and still substantially so towards the tip.
In Parrot, the upper mandible shows by the outer line a shape which is pretty horizontal or even raising a bit coming from the skull. Towards the tip of the bill, there is a sudden 'knick' : that's how it narrows (subtlely but distinct)
In Red there is a more gradual slope, directly from the skull onwards to the tip.

How this applies to this bird: The ribbon that marks the change from the side to the underside of the lower mandible reveals a small surface to the side of the lower compared to the upper mandible.
The outline of the upper may be a bit out of place since the photo is taken from an unfavourable angle(a hard aspect) compared to an aspect in full profile but still it is not raising expectations towards Parrot either.
Totall surface of the bill is not overwhelming. The head is not big and angular.

 

[Merops333]

I would say Common Crossbill. The beak is not all that bulky.

 

[Giroud Marc]

I don't saw anything wrong for a Common Crossbill

 

[chris butterworth]

Common Crossbill. Difficult from that angle, but the head / neck doesn't seem 'bulky' enough, the bill doesn't seem anywhere near 'square' enough, the culmen looks to be more shallowly curved towards the tip without the sharp down turned / 'square' tip of Parrot. The lower mandible appears to lack the bulging gonys which gives a pronounced 'S' shape in profile in Parrot. There is so much individual variation in plumage in both Common and Parrot that I wouldn't rely on separating them on plumage alone. Even the bill size and shape can, occasionally, overlap.

 

[JHDraytonbassettpits]

Parrot Crossbills at Budby Common for comparison
http://pewit.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Parrot Crossbill

 

[JHDraytonbassettpits]

At Budby Common when the 14 Birds, Parrot Crossbill arrived it was thought to be a mixed Crossbill flock by birders because female and some males had smaller bills, later it was found that all the 14 birds were Parrot crossbill and they remained in this group throughout the winter. Which makes sense as the Parrot Crossbill were feeding on Scott's Pine, another abundant widely planted conifer planted in the UK is Larch and is used mostly by Common Crossbill.

 

[gerdwichers8]

If there would be a picture more in profile it would help. For now the bill doesn't establish confidence this to be a Parrot.

 

[Lawts]

Some more shots of what may be a mixed flock. I still think a couple of these birds could be Parrot Crossbills. In particular the second and fourth birds. The fourth was taken on the same day but at a different time and may be from another flock.

It is interesting that they continue to be reported from this site regularly as Parrots with no mention of Common. I guess I'm just flagging for people not to fall into the trap of not checking them. May be I was just unlucky and connected with the few Commons about amongst the supposed bigger flock of Parrots.

My shots from November are just not in doubt, but these are challenging.

If anyone got any shots specifically from last Sunday the 16th, especially when they came down to drink I'd appreciate them posting.

 

[gerdwichers8]

1 Uncertain; 2 Almost certain; 3 Probable; 4 ~Certain

 

[Lawts]

1 Uncertain; 2 Almost certain; 3 Probable; 4 ~Certain

Are your references to Common?

 

[gerdwichers8]

No Steve

 

[stuart white]

There is definitely a small flock of common crossbills in the area, I saw c10 back in early Jan, I did however see 8 Parrots later in Jan in the same spot. I thought the flocks were keeping separate ? maybe not ?
I know quite a few noroflk birders who've seen them literally dozens of time, might be worth talking to them

 

[Lawts]

There is definitely a small flock of common crossbills in the area, I saw c10 back in early Jan, I did however see 8 Parrots later in Jan in the same spot. I thought the flocks were keeping separate ? maybe not ?
I know quite a few noroflk birders who've seen them literally dozens of time, might be worth talking to them

I've posted on the Norfolk thread.

Thanks.

 

[sacha]

Not sure what the problem is. The photos seem to show Parrot Crossbills (from my quick glance). There are about 24 Parrot Crossbills in the area. I watched a flock of 13-14 last week. There had been Common Crossbills coming down to drink earlier (I only saw the one flock which was all Parrots). I saw great photos (back of the camera) of the commons.
The call, structure, bill, heads of the birds I saw was nothing other than Parrot.
Yes.. There are both species in the area but nothing to be too concerned about. It's possible to tell which ones if heard an seen well.

 

[Lawts]

Not sure what the problem is. The photos seem to show Parrot Crossbills (from my quick glance). There are about 24 Parrot Crossbills in the area. I watched a flock of 13-14 last week. There had been Common Crossbills coming down to drink earlier (I only saw the one flock which was all Parrots). I saw great photos (back of the camera) of the commons.
The call, structure, bill, heads of the birds I saw was nothing other than Parrot.
Yes.. There are both species in the area but nothing to be too concerned about. It's possible to tell which ones if heard an seen well.

No problem, just posted for discussion. There are both species in the area as you say and opinion on this thread is divided as to what species these photographs reveal. It may be both species are present or one.

I took a series of shots in November and identification wasn't in doubt. They were clearly Parrots. In fact they actually reminded me more of parrots than crossbills at times! These I don't think are so clear cut, and that might be down to the quality of the photographs.

Obviously call can't help this discussion.

 

[sacha]

Cool. I think it is hard to just go with a photo alone. Watching the birds for a while and when you get the chance to watch different ages and mixed flocks (doesn't happen often in UK) you get a good feel for the species.
Funny how Crossbills are either very tame or very secretive.. I've either had them playing hard to see or act very tame!

 

[Julian Bell]

Most autumns / winters we get a bunch of large billed Crossbills moving through. I don't think of myself as an expert on Crossbills and they are quite difficult to nail at times. I've done "Svennson's" formula from profile shots and found birds I am pretty sure were just big-billed Commons fitting the formula for Parrots.

Parrots have a bill that should be "less curvy" i.e. go straight for a bit before starting the downward curve. Commons curve straight away.

Commons here:
http://www.naturalbornbirder.com/gallery/c_crossbill.php


Parrots here:
http://www.naturalbornbirder.com/gallery/parrot_crossbill.php

Not easy. Call helps a lot if you know it well - and for the most part I can't get the call to work.