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Chinatown Warbler (1 Viewer)

I have to admit I haven't fully read the original thread (possibly a good thing?!), and admit am not up on the id technicalities as generally discussed above, I apologise if my points have already been discussed. My angle is this; if the bird has not been able to be formally identified due to id features not fitting any known species, what could it be and why in general terms?

Going back to basics -

1) is it a common species (Reed?) (Or even a rarer species) showing some abnormal features and behaviour
a) due to illness/parasitism
b) due to lighting or other environmental effects
c) moult
d) other factors . . . (eg learnt behaviour wrt branch running/tail pumping)​
2) is it a rare warbler (in uk terms) which we do not have the experience in to id successfully?

3) is it a race/form of a warbler species not previously encountered before(feasible?) (Or even hitherto undiscovered species?)

4) is it a hybrid? (if so between which species/ races??)

5) is it some kind of mutation
a) a new mutation (affecting different physical and behavioural characteristics)
b) some kind of genetic throwback thus exhibiting features of an earlier parent warbler sp. whose genes are still present in the redundant DNA held by all extant species.​

6) mass hallucination effects brought on by unknown influences in northern car parks. . .

7) not all relevant features were able to be noted accurately (eg flight?) . . .

Just my thoughts, attempting +ve contribution from another angle (I think, and including no 6, its happened elsewhere before) ;)

My question - what are the rough likelihoods/probabilities of each of the above scenarios?? (plus any I may have missed) And I know some are pretty low . . .
 
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If all these experts feel it is Reed Warbler it probably is.

On the original thread, even I stated confidently "even I could tell this wasnt a Reed Warbler".

Whoops!

Would love it to be proven/accepted as something else tho.
 
Wing length On photographs where the bird is close to sideways on, the wing tips appear to be more or less level with the visible base of the outer tail feathers. There are however several photos where the wings appear to fall significantly short of the tail. (1st pic) >HERE< is a full bird picture showing this quite clearly.

In non side-on postures, the wings can sometimes appear to pass the base of the tail. (2nd pic).

I'm currently looking for photographs of Reed Warbler where the wing tips do not appear to reach the base of the tail or well beyond it. Sideways on and looking down is the position which maximises the chances of seeing the wing tips short of the tail base, though it hasn't achieved it in these (shorter-winged) Blyth's Reeds (pic 3). In fact you have to go all the way to Paddyfield Warbler and Clamorous Reed Warbler before you can routinely find photos showing wing tips near to or short of the base of the tail. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and eventually a Blyth's Reed here


I can find plenty of images where short-winged Acros, like Paddyfield have the wing tips past the base of the outer TFs, 1,2, 3, 4, 5, 6.


but have still not found a Reed Warbler in a position that leaves its wings falling short of the visible base of the outer TF. Help in searching would be appreciated.

Here is as close I have got so far
http://www.smppa.org.uk/Natural_History/Birds/Images/Large/cf_reed_warbler.jpg
http://www.nyctea.co.uk/photos/birds/reedwarbler1.jpg
http://www.birdsireland.com/images/2006/september/ReedWarbler.jpg
 

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dantheman; said:
My question - what are the rough likelihoods/probabilities of each of the above scenarios?? (plus any I may have missed) And I know some are pretty low . . .

Hi Dan, this is what I'm sort of exploring at the moment. Don't take this too seriously!

The best chance of getting a rough probability is if this bird is a Reed Warbler.

Its and adult - so say 1 in 4 of the population. Tail moult can be used to explain the consistently closed, apparently square or notched tail. BWP suggests central pair may be replaced (rarely) so lets say 1 in a 100 of the adults. (running total 1 in 400) I've not looked into the shortness of the wings properly yet, but again wing moult may explain it. Reeds are not supposed to moult their flight feathers at all in the breeding grounds, but I imagine that its possible that conditions that induced a tail moult might induce a wing moult too. Lets say 1 in 100 of those birds again (now 1 in 40,000). The paleness of the upperparts and the white outer tail feathers is also likely to be related, so lets guess at just 1 in 10 for that (1 in 400,000). The tertial fringes are most likely to be clearly pale fringed on fresh birds, so lets guess at 1 in 10. (now 1 in 4,000,000. The the long legs, perhaps 1 in 100 of the Reed Warbler Population has legs this long (1 in 400,000,000). The pale claws and pinkish legs - say 1 in 10 of adults (1 in 4,000,000,000). Then lets knock off two orders of magnitude for safeties sake. Its a 1 in 40 Million Reed Warbler.

The UK population (1976) is about 80,000 pairs (480,000 birds including young), throwing in the Scandinavian and Dutch populations you can get past 2,000,000. Lets double that for population increases since these estimates were made - so 4 million.
 
Hi Dan, this is what I'm sort of exploring at the moment. Don't take this too seriously!
You are being ironic here I presume? ;)

I realise you are collating info on variability in Reed Warblers to see if individuals can be found exhibiting the various characteristics found . . . and when done you will probably be the foremost world expert on said species!

Just tried to approach this from a different angle, (lateral thinking?) but guess the angles I came up with may have already been covered . . .

My answers (and including yours above are), roughly, are as such;

1) Common species (or rarer) within range of features normally found
Reed - 1 in 40 million??!! ie possible EOW - 0 (impossible)??!! you tell me . . . !
Sykes - ditto??!!

2)Species not yet considered - Unlikely - given the expertise available (however were all the possible warbler sp.s from asia including india etc considered??)

3)New species/ssp -Possible - given the retiring nature of the bird in dense foliage. How well known are the similar warber genuses known, in say, northern china. Could a bird similar to other species have slipped through the net as it were. Observers (and there are far fewer in China than the uk) would always put it down as one of the other species, even on migration if it were seen (as the c.10% unidentifiable in Africa in winter by biometrics quoted already) An 'unknown' species or subspecies could feasibly occur even closer than china of course. Whether it could get lost and turn up in Manchester in Aug is a relevant question tho. . .

4)Hybrid - I see 'don't even go there' as a previous answer to this!
Don't know if there can be proof, except a quick look on the net revealed Great Reed x Reed and Blyth's Reed x Reed, so presumably many others could occur . . . . hence a big Possible?? (American Wood Warblers don't count, although since they are bright and bold(ish), they stand out. Old world warblers could hybridise just as frequently, just we'd never know . . . )



5) a)new mutations- if we believe in evolution then this is possible. And a whole suite of characters could change, if say a chromosome got doubled up, say. Possible
b)throwback- since this term seems to be used mostly in a deragatory sense, or occurs when specific breeding changes have occurred as in breeding cichlid fish or in races of human after 5 or 10 generations, not sure if this can actually happen when we talk about going back thousands of generations (although there appears to be an article in National Geographic about whales growing limbs as a throwback feature!) Unproven

6) Mass hallucination. Unlikely in this case, given the number of observers, fact that many remained impartial, and number of photographs and discussion hence. Not possible, given the ordinary laws of the universe still holding.

7) The bird was seen reasonably well enough from all the observers and pictures taken for any key features to have been missed or misidentified. Not likely

With regard with it being an abberant Reed W, I personally (not having seen it of course) think that several of the above scenarios are just as likely, especially 4) possibly 3 and 5a?? . . . . . But impossible to prove I suppose . . . at least you are trying to prove it could have been a Reed (but are you able to key in any of the behavioural features noted in your appraisal??)
(And I'm actually out of my depth on most of this, just my thoughts, (and my IQ seems to have just gone down a lot more just recently than I thought it was - re test the nation);))
 
If all these experts feel it is Reed Warbler it probably is.

On the original thread, even I stated confidently "even I could tell this wasnt a Reed Warbler".

Whoops!

Would love it to be proven/accepted as something else tho.

Keep the faith!! (It 'may' have been something else, but won't be proven as such). If we could have gotten the same road traffic officers who closed the M40 down for 36 hours recently to have given the car park a good grilling for 6 weeks, examining each twig and leaf for feathers, droppings and dna samples we may have had something . . . . maybe not. Oh well ;))
 
It was don't take the numbers too seriously - way too many unknowns.

Re the hybrid thing, rama and caligata and rama/pallida unhelpfully have intergrade zones.
 
It was don't take the numbers too seriously - way too many unknowns.
;) ok, did wonder afterwards. Looks like I've taken it fairly seriously, (one of the probs of going on BF in the early hours), I'll leave you to analyse Reed Warbler variability in the manner in which you started, since any kind of exploration of the other avenues I'm suggesting isn't necessarily going to shed much new light . . . .
 
A question I posed on the original thread Dan, was why the hugely disproportionate number of adult Eastern Hippos that turn up!
 
Still not managed to find a picture of a Reed Warbler (or and EOW) in a pose that manages to leave its wing tips short of the visible base of the outer tail feathers.

Has anyone else got close? I guess not or I'd have heard about it, probably quite triumphantly ;)
>here< is a Blyth's Reed Warbler, (shorter winged than Reed) in about the same position. The wing tips are way past the tail base.

This bird shows it in many photos, without performing any obvious contortions. Its currently looking like the best anti-Reed Warbler feature, unless we invoke the wing moult clause. I've found plenty of Sykes' Warbler pictures where the wing tips fall short of the tail base however.

This bird looks rather long-rumped as opposed to long tailed in these photographs. This might have been what made it look too slim-hipped for an Acro in the field.
 

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Hannu said:
The length of visible tail feathers, which is measured from the tip of the outermost under tail coverts, is not very reliable feature, because the result varies accidentally according to the position of those utcs.
That is why I was relying on the photos that show the tail sideways on with the wings out of the way, and looking for the base of the outer TF seen from the side.

The fact remains though that it is not possible so far to find any pictures of Reed Warbler that show this, its hard to find BRW that show this and its about as easy to find Paddyfield, Booted, Sykes' as the Manchester Warbler. This would imply it has wings proportionally as long as Paddyfield and Booted etc.
 
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Its currently looking like the best anti-Reed Warbler feature, unless we invoke the wing moult clause. I've found plenty of Sykes' Warbler pictures where the wing tips fall short of the tail base however.

Your photo shows us clearly one of Reed feature or should I say anti-Olly feature. o:D If I remember right I have said it earlier....
The length of visible tail feathers, which is measured from the tip of the outermost under tail coverts, is not very reliable feature, because the result varies accidentally according to the position of those utcs.
 
See if you can help me find a photo of a Reed Warbler that shows the base of the visible outer TF with the wing tip falling inside it then! I'm trying really hard. Its not hard to do it with shorter winged species.
 
You've found most of the the same ones as me Hannu! See the links above!

Apart from the first one which is a real candidate. As far as I can tell, that one is level, though the apparent end of the tail is rather close to the end of the utcs. Takes a lot of searching though doesn't it! Whereas the Manc Warbler does it a lot!

When I get a bit of time I'll take a look at the wing to tail ratios of a bunch of Reeds, taking out the complexity of picking up the proximal extremity of the tail!
 
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