Brown Booby may get split - an issue for British listers? (2 Viewers)

[dantheman]

So my example of Subalpine Warbler, if you needed it but you'd seen one that wasn't specifically ID'd, you'd tick it on the basis that one was commoner than the other?

The Soft-plumaged Petrels may be a better comparison, what do people do with them?

Aren't they more similar in numbers though? Only an order of magnitude difference (of specifically id'ed birds, loads non-specific, either before criteria or id unable to be made), and either could conceivably turn up depending on circumstances.

Whereas there have been 3 (known) Taiga Fly in the last 50 years as opposed to thousands of RBFly (c100 per year).

Ocean hopping seabirds (from the Pacific) do occur but they are rare. Unless there is a good known mechanism for mixing ... it's a bit different from vagrancy within an ocean (eg Royal Tern etc where more care should be taken?)


So ... you can't tick either E or W Subalp (unless you want to be luddite and stick with Subalpine as a default species ;-) ), but you could tick RB Fly, yes generally, imo, even if you hadn't ruled out Taiga in the circumstances. Each to their own though. With regard to committees ... they have to be discerning, but a degree of pragmatism has to exist there too. It wouldn't do for all RB Fly records from the past to be relegated to flycatcher sp. ... ?

 

[Jacana]

How many unphotographed Brown Booby records have there been for the UK? As far as I'm aware, brewsteri isn't that hard to identify, so it's a relatively simple matter to review past records and to identify and future birds.

With regards the taxonomic position, the IOC haven't added this to their proposal page yet but I would expect the proposal to appear there within the year. It looks almost certain that the SACC will accept the split and the IOC almost always follow their decisions when it comes to splits or lumps.

 

[Southern Frogmouth]

I think you'll find that a judgement call is already made by BBRC based on likelihood, but only when one is though very unlikely to occur here. Take Black-browed Albatross and Campbell Albatross for instance. On distribution and known movements Campbell Albatross is very unlikely to make it here. However, a distant adult Black-browed Albatross or any immature presumed of that species will be accepted as such despite the fact that they can't be conclusively identified based on plumage. The issue with North Atlantic Pterodroma is that all three could certainly turn up here and the same with Subalpine Warbler sp. too - we know they all can and do turn up and the relative likelihood is not sufficiently different to make treating them as one particular species by default a reasonable approach.

Of course purists would argue that assumptions shouldn't be made. After all I don't think Ascension Frigatebird was seriously considered to be likely to turn up here and look how that turned out.

I think most British Brown Booby records will still be identifiable to species anyway, but one or two might not.

 

[Jonny721]

Another similar example to the above Black-browed/Campbell Albatross pair is Red-flanked Bluetail, which in 1st winter plumage is very difficult to distinguish from 1st winter Himalayan Bluetail, which is a possible extralimital vagrant to the WP. However, nobody actually scrutinises every Red-flanked Bluetail that turns up in the UK each autumn to rule out Himalayan, as the odds of the latter actually turning up here are tiny, but not zero.

 

[johnallcock]

Pacific Swift and Black-faced Bunting have also remained on the British list despite recent splits. Have the records for these actually been confirmed to rule out Cook's/Salim Ali's/Blyth's Swifts and Masked Bunting?

I assume some Arctic Warblers call or sing to rule out Japanese/Kamchatka, and some Great Reed Warblers sing to rule out Oriental/Clamorous, confirming the species onto the British list. But are all individual records of these species positively confirmed or are they accepted as such on the basis that only one of the complex has been recorded previously?

 

[JWN Andrewes]

It's been an interesting and educational thread this, but it is also one of those areas (along with the presence of a few slightly anomalous feathers leading to speculation of hybridization, or the guilty until proven innocent approach to captive vs wild provenance) where I try and remind myself that this is a hobby, that I do for fun. I wholly understand where people are coming from demanding extreme rigour in these cases, but it can't half drain the joy from the experience!

I'm happy for my ticks to be civil, not criminal.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I'm happy for my ticks to be civil, not criminal.

I can't prevent myself pointing out that there is not a binary choice between civil and criminal but in fact, the civil burden is a movable feast dependent on how extreme the element that you are looking to prove... Four weeks of my life in Court on such issues - a trial and a re-trial following a hung jury on a civil matter. (I have a history of being corrected on here about legal matters by people thinking that they know more about them than me which amuses me. Yes it was a jury trial on a civil matter.)

But it is plain that the Committees have no real understanding of burden of proof or onus so please do not expect any form of consistency by them on a proper analysis between species!

On the topic of the thread, I have always been inclined towards thinking that the North Wales 'Royal Tern' was in fact a West African Crested Tern which is ironic as some people do not think I saw it! It will be interesting what happens in due course on review to those records. Of course, there are proven ringed records of Royal Tern as well as a confused DNA analysis from Ireland where a DNA confirmation to the contrary was corrected due to a specimen error.

(It is as ironic as all of the 'British only' listers that I saw going to the Isle of Man Calandra Lark.)

On Brown Booby, it will not be an issue for me as I exercise independent judgment for better or worse following reading any Committee output and discussions with individuals who I respect and I know know more than me! I currently believe that both of mine in Britain were nominate Brown Booby. Trickier decisions out there. Be interesting if the information ever suggests that conclusion is wrong but it is only a number! The experiences were great regardless.

Couple of Lizard Brown Booby pics attached.

All the best

Paul

 

[JWN Andrewes]

I will gladly bow to your far superior legal expertise Paul!

But in broad terms I find the civil vs criminal distinction a useful, if amateurish, one to articulate my approach to deciding what makes it onto my meagre and, frankly, profoundly unimportant UK list.

And if we're sharing Booby pics, a couple of the Bishop bird attached.

 

[Farnboro John]

I've twitched the odd bird in Eire in the past, all overwritten by political UK at the moment but that Isle of Man Calandra Lark remains as a reason for listing British Isles in addition to keeping the option open for the future (to this point I've resisted the Yellow-crowned Night Heron) and simply thinking British Isles is zoologically coherent whereas all the political delineations have "ah, yes, but...." caveats.

John