Product Review: Oberwerk SE 8 x 32 ED. (1 Viewer)

[Sancho]

Just to clarify...I didn't say that the Oberwerk SE 8x32 are comparable to anything, although I did say that they control CA as well as my Zeiss TFL, and I stand by that with the proviso that I'm talking about one unit of each, and my own eyeballs only. I also said that I have no other 8x32 to which I can compare them. Other than that, I also said they are sharp across most of the field, although not as bright as the Zeiss, also comparably heavy, and with only a two-year guarantee. Obviously I have no idea what condition they will be in two years hence. I find them comfortable in the hand and well-balanced, but that is the only other "comparo" I made, likening the barrel-length to the Nikon SE 10x42. The only area in which I will backtrack is the focusser, as I find today on closer inspection that it does have a bit of "play". For someone who wants an excellent-performing, heavy, waterproof porro, they are a steal at the price. I won't get involved on the issue of "MIC", or made-anywhere-else, I live in a country that imports most consumer goods and if I were to strip out everything "Made in China" from my house, there would be a lot of empty space and no electronics. I know nothing of any other Oberwerk products, but as far as I understand it is a U.S. company. So I recommend these binos to porro-lovers as an excellent waterproof, currently sturdy, sub 250USD bino. Now what about those IBWO

 

[brocknroller]

I think Canip was referring to people with lots of opinions on the Oberwerk SE without trying them out. I don’t know if the shoe fits here. But I do know it’s time for a new camera or possibly a two to three old generation smart phone so we all can make out what’s in your pictures without reminding us of our grandfathers instamatic accordion camera pictures 🤣.

Peace.

You reminded me that I still have my parent's Polaroid Instant Camera and a couple unused packages of Polaroid instant film! Not sure if I should use it or sell the whole shebang on the auction site.

Thanks to your nagging, I bought an Olympus camera, which has a 30x ED glass optical zoom, and I would imagine it has a macro setting (need to read the owner's manual). It might not be as sharp as the camera in your Apple iPhone 14 Pro, but I've tried it, and the images are much sharper than my pocket Nikon CooWhiplpix.

I'm not sure about replacing my lost Samsung 7 smartphone. I'm waiting for v. 10 to come out.

Brock

 

[brocknroller]

Hi Brock,

of course nobody knows what will happen in the long term, but in the short or medium term I don't believe that the Chinese will prevail with Alpha binoculars.
Look, the North American and European markets differ in terms of binoculars, in the USA there are manufacturers who are largely unknown or rather rare here.

Nikon has a much "better name" in the USA than in Europe, the EDG has practically nobody used here, the HG are not very common either, Nikon has actually never really gotten a foot on the ground here, at best in the low-budget area, they make sales here.

In the middle and upper range there is quite a lot of Zeiss, Leica, Swarovskiland, these manufacturers simply have an enormous tradition, like Christmas, Easter or the amen in church, all other manufacturers simply have an extremely difficult time gaining ground here.
Nikon, Kowa, Meopta, all really nice glasses but only second choice.

Oberwerk seems to be such an example, the glasses are practically non-existent here, hardly anyone talks about them, other manufacturers feel the same way, Maven?, Vortex?, Leupold?... are practically not an issue here!

I'm NOT saying these binoculars are bad, just that they don't matter.
It's also important that manufacturers conquer as broad a market as possible, Zeiss, Swarovski and Leica have a big foothold in North America, breaking this dominance is a long way off.

Andreas

Hi Andreas,

Nikon offers a variety of optics at different price points compared to the Teutonics, which up until fairly recently, only had high-priced alphas. Not everybody can afford them, and even some who can would rather spend their money on other things than $2-$3k binoculars. So that "enormous tradition" is only practiced by the few, not the many.

Consequently, the European market is ripe for Nikon's multi-tier offerings. I'm not sure why Nikon has not tried to compete in Europe. The EDGs are alphas and are up there with the very best that Germany and Austria has to offer. Plus, from the Prostaff to the HG, there's something for everyone.

Ditto for Vortex, Leupold, Kowa, Bushnell, and Maven. There's plenty of room in the middle to compete from the Terra to the SF and the CL to the NL. I'm not sure why they have kept away from Europe. VAT? There's the cost of opening offices in Europe and repair centers since shipping them back and forth to the U.S. is unappealing. But they could initially outsource those functions before putting boots on the ground themselves. I'm not sure why they don't, but I don't think it's because the Teutonics dominate the European market, because they only dominate the upscale market, which is a small segment, though you wouldn't think that given how much attention the Big Three get on BF.

As to North America, here, too, the Big Three only dominate the top tier market. There are lots of other choices for birders and hunters at various price points on this side of the pond.

Brock

 

[Conndomat]

Hi Andreas,

Nikon offers a variety of optics at different price points compared to the Teutonics, which up until fairly recently, only had high-priced alphas. Not everybody can afford them, and even some who can would rather spend their money on other things than $2-$3k binoculars. So that "enormous tradition" is only practiced by the few, not the many.

Hi Brock,

the original question was whether the Chinese would bring premium binoculars onto the market in the next few years that would be competitive across the board.

Consequently, the European market is ripe for Nikon's multi-tier offerings. I'm not sure why Nikon has not tried to compete in Europe. The EDGs are alphas and are up there with the very best that Germany and Austria has to offer. Plus, from the Prostaff to the HG, there's something for everyone.

Nikon is active on the European market with all its products and many people buy Nikon binoculars in the low-budget segment.
Only in the middle and high price segment they can't prevail, most people here buy a Conquest HD instead of a Monarch HG, or a Swarovski instead of an EDG, it's not like Nikon isn't available here.

As to North America, here, too, the Big Three only dominate the top tier market.

Yes, that's why they're world market leaders, at least as far as the premium sector is concerned.

Andreas

 

[Paultricounty]

Hi Brock,

the original question was whether the Chinese would bring premium binoculars onto the market in the next few years that would be competitive across the board.

Nikon is active on the European market with all its products and many people buy Nikon binoculars in the low-budget segment.
Only in the middle and high price segment they can't prevail, most people here buy a Conquest HD instead of a Monarch HG, or a Swarovski instead of an EDG, it's not like Nikon isn't available here.

Yes, that's why they're world market leaders, at least as far as the premium sector is concerned.

Andreas

Was only a few years ago that MIC was only junk and entry optics/binos. Today most all good mid grade bins are MIC. I followed this transition over the last 10-15 years and It now seems like it’s speeding up, not slowing down. Fast forward a few years and the upper mid grade optics will be dominated with MIC. Everything now MIJ and MIP in that $1000 range will be outsourced to China.

Something to consider and possibly research (you hear that John) would be how much were mid grade MIJ & MIG binos selling for just before the switch over to MIC. Then we might be able to extrapolate in someway as to what those items would cost today if they were still being made in japan and Germany.

 

[Conndomat]

Was only a few years ago that MIC was only junk and entry optics/binos. Today most all good mid grade bins are MIC. I followed this transition over the last 10-15 years and It now seems like it’s speeding up, not slowing down. Fast forward a few years and the upper mid grade optics will be dominated with MIC. Everything now MIJ and MIP in that $1000 range will be outsourced to China.

Something to consider and possibly research (you hear that John) would be how much were mid grade MIJ & MIG binos selling for just before the switch over to MIC. Then we might be able to extrapolate in someway as to what those items would cost today if they were still being made in japan and Germany.

Middle class is maybe something different than premium?

By the way, I'm not that pessimistic, the Chinese, like other manufacturers, want to achieve maximum profits, which is best fed with low-budget consumer goods, why should they conquer the market in the high-end area if the profits here don't promise much anyway?

Take a look at the telescope market, the Chinese have also been present here for a long time and are now building good EDs, but Takahashi and Co. don't necessarily have to worry about their supremacy.

I just think the Chinese want to serve as large a market as possible with their products, which is not necessarily in the high-end sector.

Ultimately, we in the West should also pay attention to where and what products we buy, yes that is a political statement, I also know that some things cannot be avoided, but imo these should be kept as low as possible, China is now spreading enough , I'm not ready to buy binoculars like that.

Andreas

 

[Paultricounty]

Middle class is maybe something different than premium?

Agreed.

By the way, I'm not that pessimistic, the Chinese, like other manufacturers, want to achieve maximum profits, which is best fed with low-budget consumer goods, why should they conquer the market in the high-end area if the profits here don't promise much anyway?

we always can agree to disagree, I’m extremely pessimistic because the likes of Nikon, Zeiss and others want those profit margins, and that’s where they’ll get them. But I hope I’m wrong.

Take a look at the telescope market, the Chinese have also been present here for a long time and are now building good EDs, but Takahashi and Co. don't necessarily have to worry about their supremacy.

Tak doesn’t have to worry for a while. But I’m aware of those MIC apos, and they’re pretty good for the price point.

I just think the Chinese want to serve as large a market as possible with their products, which is not necessarily in the high-end sector.

I believe that’s true, but the other side of that coin is as Brock pointed out, there will be tens of millions of middle to upper middle class Chinese that will have incomes that will allow higher quality products so it’s not a good trend right now, for us!

Ultimately, we in the West should also pay attention to where and what products we buy, yes that is a political statement, I also know that some things cannot be avoided, but imo these should be kept as low as possible, China is now spreading enough , I'm not ready to buy binoculars like that.

i’m with you there 100%. I tell everybody check those labels find and buy alternatives to made in China. Only buy when there is no alternative. If a third of the west followed that creed we could slow that eventual MIc progress. Keep in mind we’re still buying oil from Russia, our leaders never seem to learn common sense.

Paul

Andreas

 

[pat mitchel]

I wonder if there is a possible potential parallel in that the Japanese optical producers faced similar circumstances in the 60's with overproduction of inferior optics and the big optical producers and government banded together to develop standards for the optics to achieve in order to be certified for export. Hence the stickers that had JTI(JTII) stickers on the product. Perhaps the big producers in China will do the something similar. Pat (who always wondered about the "triple tested" as used on bushnell binoculars was the third test done by the consumer?)

 

[Conndomat]

we always can agree to disagree, I’m extremely pessimistic because the likes of Nikon, Zeiss and others want those profit margins, and that’s where they’ll get them. But I hope I’m wrong.

Then they won't get my money anymore!

Paul, I think a rethinking process is taking place now that the stupid Germans have made themselves dependent on Russian energy for decades and have thus made a lot of money possible for Putin's desire to expand - at least some seem to have woken up.

I believe that’s true, but the other side of that coin is as Brock pointed out, there will be tens of millions of middle to upper middle class Chinese that will have incomes that will allow higher quality products so it’s not a good trend right now, for us!

Why shouldn't these many new riches use Zeiss, Swarovski or Leica products?
These richer people are already buying products from abroad.

The vast majority of people in the world tend to belong to the poorer group and nothing will change (unfortunately!) in the next few decades, China is raging at maximum here because people in the lower range have to spend their money, even if China is partially growing don't change much about it.

You can generate the most money with the mass of people.

Andreas

 

[Paultricounty]

Then they won't get my money anymore!

Paul, I think a rethinking process is taking place now that the stupid Germans have made themselves dependent on Russian energy for decades and have thus made a lot of money possible for Putin's desire to expand - at least some seem to have woken up.

Why shouldn't these many new riches use Zeiss, Swarovski or Leica products?
These richer people are already buying products from abroad.

The vast majority of people in the world tend to belong to the poorer group and nothing will change (unfortunately!) in the next few decades, China is raging at maximum here because people in the lower range have to spend their money, even if China is partially growing don't change much about it.

You can generate the most money with the mass of people.

Andreas

Andreas,
A lot of people are waking up here in the states and overseas. The only problem that I see, certainly here in the states is that not enough people are waking up. It will require a much higher level of suffering before the people truly wake up.

When enough people have to start choosing between gas in their car or food on the table, then you’ll have a true awakening. We’re not near that yet, at least not for most.

 

[Conndomat]

Andreas,
A lot of people are waking up here in the states and overseas. The only problem that I see, certainly here in the states is that not enough people are waking up. It will require a much higher level of suffering before the people truly wake up.

Paul,

My impression is that American politicians have been paying more attention to not handing over everything to China for a number of years. It should be clear that these processes cannot be done overnight.

Europe is becoming increasingly independent of Russian energy and the focus is increasingly on the Chinese drive to expand.

When enough people have to start choosing between gas in their car or food on the table, then you’ll have a true awakening. We’re not near that yet, at least not for most.

That would not be a good development.

People who have reached a certain level of prosperity are less susceptible to wars, look at Russia, basically a poor country, most of them still have the toilet in the back of the house, people who have something to lose think twice.
Therefore, a certain level of prosperity in China should not scare us, it would be a win-win constellation, prosperity generates education and thus a greater degree of opportunity for reflection.

Systems often begin to erode when a certain level of poverty is reached, which nobody actually wants, exactly such systems have a high potential for conflict.
With regard to China, that would mean looking for an "external" enemy who is to blame for everything, exactly what Russia is doing now, not Putin is to blame for Russia's decline, but the West.

We should all have an interest in China not becoming impoverished, but on the other hand, the greedy urge to expand must be countered with determination.

Andreas

 

[Paultricounty]

Paul,

My impression is that American politicians have been paying more attention to not handing over everything to China for a number of years. It should be clear that these processes cannot be done overnight.

Europe is becoming increasingly independent of Russian energy and the focus is increasingly on the Chinese drive to expand.


That would not be a good development.

People who have reached a certain level of prosperity are less susceptible to wars, look at Russia, basically a poor country, most of them still have the toilet in the back of the house, people who have something to lose think twice.
Therefore, a certain level of prosperity in China should not scare us, it would be a win-win constellation, prosperity generates education and thus a greater degree of opportunity for reflection.

Systems often begin to erode when a certain level of poverty is reached, which nobody actually wants, exactly such systems have a high potential for conflict.
With regard to China, that would mean looking for an "external" enemy who is to blame for everything, exactly what Russia is doing now, not Putin is to blame for Russia's decline, but the West.

We should all have an interest in China not becoming impoverished, but on the other hand, the greedy urge to expand must be countered with determination.

Andreas

Well said and very diplomatic I might ad. You navigated that extremely well where as not to offend some sensibilities here as has been the case for a few who have complained. 🙏🏼.

Now back to the OP before the higher ups shut us down 🤫
I’ve been thinking after reading all the opinions on these Oberwerks. It seems to me that people don’t have any choices other than MIC when it comes to entry to mid grade optics and binoculars. Under $300 there’s nothing that I can think of. At $500 there are the Vortex Vipers to Razors, made in Indonesia, but what else is available.

Paul

 

[Sancho]

The clothes on our backs, trainers on our feet, caps on our heads. The petrol we put in our cars to go watch birds. The oil and gas we're going to need next winter (even though in EU we congratulate ourselves for 'reducing' our dependence so far). Every electronic item we use. The repressive, authoritarian governments our 'Western' rulers arm, and snuggle up to. Much of the comforts we have and consume, from our central heating, our phones, our food, to our bino collections, rests on sweat-shop labour, denial of women's rights, human rights abuses of all sorts, including in Middle Eastern and Southeast Asian countries sponsored and supported by 'the West'. We're all living in glass houses. But sure, we can get incensed over a pair of cheap binoculars designed by an American company and made in China. Meanwhile a Chinese citizen, in the world's second economy, can justifiably look in bewilderment at the world's largest, where women's rights are being reversed at speed, where guns outnumber people and as a result tens of thousands die annually, including at the hands of the police, and ethnic minorities populate prisons and death-rows in excess proportion. So no, I don't reject U.S. goods. Or U.K. goods. Or Chinese goods. Or goods from a company that I can only hope checked out conditions in its overseas production partners. The horse is very high and I'm not going to sit on it. Damn, I said I wasn't going to comment on the MIC issue, but I lied. Maybe we should shift this out of the optics forum and off to RF where it belongs.

 

[brocknroller]

"Give the People What They Want." But which class of people?

In State College, which is the town adjacent to Penn State University's University Park campus, where I went to college and the town where I lived for 28 years, there are now 4,000 Asians (that's 1% of the total number in the U.S.). Some work as faculty or staff, but most are students. Many of these students own luxury cars--BMWs, Mercedes, Corvettes, Land Rovers, and one student who lived close to my green and serene neighborhood of Woodycrest, had a Maserati like Joe Walsh (except he didn't lose his license by driving 195). Nearly the entire block where I lived has been turned into luxury student housing.

These Chinese students' grandparents rode bicycles and the better off ones, second hand cars on bumpy roads, not the modern superhighways that now traverse China. I'm not even sure the Chinese nouveau riche students would buy a luxury Buick "Made in China" or premium Chinese binoculars. Then again, their grandparents probably would have thunk it possible that their grandchildren would be buying luxury cars and studying abroad. Change has been very rapid in China.

You can always spot Japanese students. They are more frugal and nationalistic. They buy used Japanese cars: Toyotas, Subarus, Mazda, and Nissans (some models of which are now made in the U.S.!). I wonder if they also own Japanese made binoculars?

Like Paul, I've been following the developments in China for a long time. For decades, I wrote about a number of business issues including the impact of the rapid growth of China and outsourcing of jobs on regional business for Pennsylvania Business Central, a regional business to business newspaper.

https://www.tcpinc.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Gold-Collar-Jobs.pdf

China's economy was hurt badly by COVID and the government's strict "Zero Covid" policy. But it has also been damaged by President Xi Jinping's ideological effort to remake state capitalism.

His predecessors had been liberalizing business and encouraging entrepreneurship. He's also replaced experienced economic experts and replaced them with much less experienced loyalists aligned who align with his state capitalist ideology. That's bad news for private businesses in China, and bad news for consumers since private enterprise is what usually drives innovation in all fields including optics.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/26/economy/china-leadership-economy-global-business-intl-hnk/index.html

Brock

 

[Sancho]

We know all this Dennis. I lived in China when no-one had a private car, and I was the only person on the campus to own a Feng Huang bicycle. A copy of an old "sit up and beg" gearless Raleigh. The only other teachers who could compete with such a ¨"luxury" item rode Song He bikes. And I´ve been back many times since and have seen the changes you describe. So...what has all this got to do with highly respected U.S. company Oberwerk? Or indeed the iPhones (mostly MIC) that are the most popular "cell" in the U.S.? Or, dammit, my nice new pair of binos?

 

[dries1]

Well Sancho thanks for that you actually have traveled to China, and I know for a fact that Russians have pretty good bathrooms.

 

[Sancho]

Thanks Dries. Hey, when I was a kid we had an 'outhouse'! Did me no harm, made me the man I am today, etc. Meanwhile I seem to.remember a thread on BF years ago in which a member who had visited Kunming Optical reported very high standards and enthusiastic staff with good working conditions. I can't find the thread though.

 

[Conndomat]

His predecessors had been liberalizing business and encouraging entrepreneurship. He's also replaced experienced economic experts and replaced them with much less experienced loyalists aligned who align with his state capitalist ideology. That's bad news for private businesses in China, and bad news for consumers since private enterprise is what usually drives innovation in all fields including optics.

But that would contradict a premium binoculars from China?!

In principle, it wouldn't matter, why shouldn't the Chinese try their hand at high-end optics, in the end it would be the consumers who would decide whether there was a real market opportunity, the small number of amateur astronomers would not be particularly decisive for the market.

I still think the Chinese are quite rational economically, they get in where they can make the biggest profits, that's the low-budget market for optics and maybe the middle range, where it could be tough and tedious and where Markets are firmly occupied, stay out of it for now.

In addition, the question would be what should be better about high-end binoculars from China than binoculars from top European or American manufacturers, apart from perhaps the price?
For many years, Nikon offered its EDG here at a much lower price than Zeiss/Swaro/Leica, but hardly anyone bought it, just a low price is not enough, other manufacturers have tried this.

Andreas

 

[brocknroller]

But that would contradict a premium binoculars from China?!

In principle, it wouldn't matter, why shouldn't the Chinese try their hand at high-end optics, in the end it would be the consumers who would decide whether there was a real market opportunity, the small number of amateur astronomers would not be particularly decisive for the market.

I still think the Chinese are quite rational economically, they get in where they can make the biggest profits, that's the low-budget market for optics and maybe the middle range, where it could be tough and tedious and where Markets are firmly occupied, stay out of it for now.

In addition, the question would be what should be better about high-end binoculars from China than binoculars from top European or American manufacturers, apart from perhaps the price?
For many years, Nikon offered its EDG here at a much lower price than Zeiss/Swaro/Leica, but hardly anyone bought it, just a low price is not enough, other manufacturers have tried this.

Andreas

Again, I'm not sure why Nikon's top optics haven't fiared well iin Europe other than the company's refusal to promote them proplerly. Put some EDGs and HGs into European reviewers' and hunting guides' hands, and let them spread the word like Swaro does here in the States.

If Lee interviews a Nikon rep, I'd like him to ask that question, then maybe we'll find out.

No doubt there's some national and even European pride to for Japanese and Chinese manfuactures to overcome, as one BF member posted recently on this thread or another in the binoculars forums about being happy that the Big Three and other Euro bins are being made in Europe and are supprting European jobs.

I'm semi-retired with a meager pension, so price matters to me. That's one reason I buy Japanese binoculars incliuding the E2, SE, EDG, and Cabela's Guide, all of which offer a great bang for the buck. The other reason is that Japanse optics manufactures can make bins with as high quality as the Teutonics. So, I dom't feel I'm losing out.

I'm probably in the minority on BF, looking at all the photos of large alpoha collections by various members, but I'm sure I'm not in the minority among the plebeians and retirees in US and Europe who also want the best optics for the money.

The issue with me, and I think many from my geneartion, is that we equate MIC with low quality. That makes me skeptical about high quality optics coming out of China despit the fact they are "Getting Better All the Time (can't get no worse)."

Depending on what happens with the Cold (Trade) War between China and the US, the next geneation of Americans and Europeans may feel differently, and they could be willing to buy high quality optics from China for half the price or less than they would from Germany and Austria.

Some US politicans are using China as a strawman, and that's not helping. Villfying China isn't going to change America's weakenesse; however, greater investment in vocational education, domestic manufacturing, and support for labor unions will.

Again, I make the comparison with what "Made in Japan" meant when I was growing up, which competely turned around. That can happen with "Made in Japan." Given the rapid pace of change in China, that could take place faster than it did in Japan.

I think there is a market in the US, in Europe, and even in China for "Haute Chinese," but it might take another generation to be realized.

That's assuming the human race doesn't get blown up in WWIII if China joins Russia and Iran in a hot war against the West and Israel. That's what keeps me up at night (that and my neighbor's dog).

Brock

 

[Conndomat]

Hello Brock,

I know that Nikon can build really great binoculars, I still have the EDG 8x32 myself and had the EDG 7x42 for a long time.
The EDG are absolutely at eye level with the European brands.
Unfortunately, I belong to an absolute minority who have ever used an EDG here, many binocular friends know from reports that it is a very good glass, but hardly anyone has really seen it, it haunts the forums here as a "chimera".

As far as a premium from China is concerned, no one knows exactly what will happen in 10, 15 or 20 years, maybe humanity will be history by then and only a blink of an eye in the universe.

Andreas