Hume's Leaf Warbler at Norton. UK (1 Viewer)

[Mark Newsome]

I've been having a few niggling doubts over the identification of the Hume's Leaf Warbler at Norton, Cleveland...
Although it was calling very much like a Hume's when I saw it, some features seemed open to question. Eg:
The extensive pale base to the lower mandible.
The very dark contrasting centres/bases to the greater coverts.
The very broad supercilium even in width along its length, not peaking infront of the eye and tapering off like typical Hume's.
The fairly dull pinky-brown legs.
The rather bright olivey upperparts (although it distinctly changes colour according to whether in bright sun or in cloud, as photos show).

It called frequently when I was there - always a fairly typical 'chee-ulp' with a downward inflection (but its a while since I heard Hume's!). But... apparently it has also been heard to sound very much like a Yellow-browed too.

A decent range of photos are available on the gallery of Teesmouth Bird Club website:
http://www.teesmouthbc.com/tbcweb/2008part1/scarce/2008scarce1.htm

Now I'm not saying it isn't a Hume's, I've only watched it on the one day for an hour or so. But I'd like other birders thoughts and opinions on plumage variations between the two species. Has anyone had experience of Hume's sounding similar to YBW?
Cheers.

(IanF - hope you don't mind me borrowing one of your excellent pics to illustrate a point! Thanks.)

 

[Marcus Conway - ebirder]

More pictures.
When we were there we only heard the diagnostic call, which I noted as a tuneful pied wagtail!

 

[Mark Newsome]

Nice pics Marcus. And shows how the colour can change with the light. In most photos the crown does look quite greyish, a good pro-Hume's feature.
Re calls - apparently Hume's can occasionally give a YBW type call, but YBW never gives a Hume's call (Chris Bell pers comm). Maybe this explains why some observers have heard it sound more like a YBW at times?

 

[macrourus]

we have same problem this winter with a Hume's at Ventotene island (our Scilly with Linosa island, recently a male Cyprus Warbler !!!!!!!!!) and when we send the call recorded to Magnus Robb and other it sounded effectively odd...

Alson same problem with extensive pale yellow bill base (2/3)...
it sound like a mandelli but we are searching for Per Alstrom and Hannù Jannes opinions...

cheers

A

 

[JANJ]

Regarding extensive pale lower mandible base see some of these from Finland and Sweden.

http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/ind...country=&place=&order=lisays_paiva+DESC&sel=2

Sweden 21.Feb. 2008 (Johan Gehrisch)

http://www.artportalen.se/artportalen/gallery/images/swe/birds/2008/large/62988.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/ulfstahle/image/87878619

http://www.club300.se/Gallery/ViewImage.aspx?imageID=8783

Some more with mandelli lowest bird

http://www.sofnet.org/index.asp?lev=1683&typ=1

Seems to be somewhat variable.

JanJ

 

[IanF]

The same concerns have been raised at TBC. Hopefully someone has obtained a decent sound recording of it.

I have my concerns as well as the photos I've taken tend to show pinkish feet and pinkish to the underside of the bill virtually it's whole length. I've only got the guidebooks to compare it with. The legs look lightish in some photos but dark in others. Overall it looks very greenish rather than greyish. Cheek colouration seems to vary with the lighting but mostly looks darkish. On appearance I was leaning towards YBW.

Having heard the call several times though I'd convinced myself it Hume's after all. I'm still not 100% but tending more in that direction still.

Not having seen that many YBW close up and being the first potential Hume's I wouldn't like to make a call one way or the other.

A friend in Kazakhstan thought it looked like Hume's but admits he's not an expert though see's more than we do.

Being just 3 miles from where I live I've called in a few times for a look and to try for better photos but it seldoms stops moving and seldom comes close other than in poor light when it seems to prefer the brambles as opposed to tree tops. It's always calling though so hopefully a better recording will be obtained by someone.

Comparing photos with the one from Cornwall on Birdguides, that one definitely looks like Hume's with dark bill, dark legs and greyish rather than greenish.

 

[Xenospiza]

The base of the mandible of wintering Hume's Warblers is often, if not always, pale.

I really don't know where this "dark mandible" in the field guides comes from... I first noticed the pale mandible on a wintering Hume's Warbler in the Netherlands in 2001, which coincidentally also looked greener than expected (and which I suggested to approach mandelli at the time).

 

[Xenospiza]

Marcus's pictures and description of the call say Hume's to me... and the crown looks dull as expected. Check this Hume's which was seen in the Netherlands in December: http://www.dutchbirding.nl/pics/temp/humesbladkoning2007122201.jpg

 

[Mark Newsome]

Marcus's pictures and description of the call say Hume's to me... and the crown looks dull as expected. Check this Hume's which was seen in the Netherlands in December: http://www.dutchbirding.nl/pics/temp/humesbladkoning2007122201.jpg

This bird looks very similar to the Cleveland one. Interesting that a pale based lower mandible is more the norm, contra the general feeling from field guides/some earlier ID papers.
Seeing these other photos, I feel a little more comfortable! Thanks for the input.

 

[Ghostly Vision]

I had exactly the same doubts about the one in London 3-4 years ago - pale lower mandible, birght colours, strong median wing-bar.

Advice given by people who know a lot more than me was basically the call is the only sure way to identify one.

The problem (or part of it) is that no-one in Europe sees YBW's at this time of year. It would be nice to see some photo's taken at this time of that species for comaprison. JanJ and your excellent web-detective work?

I've seen four Hume's now and many YBW's but they still confuse the hell out of me.

What does appear to be a pattern is the Hume's winter but YBW's don't appear to. Maybe that's a new identification criteria!!! (Said in jest beofre anyone corrects me)

Sean

 

[Andrew Whitehouse]

A quick search on Birdguides reveals several wintering Yellow-browed Warblers in the UK.

 

[Binocularface]

I had exactly the same doubts about the one in London 3-4 years ago - pale lower mandible, birght colours, strong median wing-bar.

Advice given by people who know a lot more than me was basically the call is the only sure way to identify one.

The problem (or part of it) is that no-one in Europe sees YBW's at this time of year. It would be nice to see some photo's taken at this time of that species for comaprison. JanJ and your excellent web-detective work?

I've seen four Hume's now and many YBW's but they still confuse the hell out of me.

What does appear to be a pattern is the Hume's winter but YBW's don't appear to. Maybe that's a new identification criteria!!! (Said in jest beofre anyone corrects me)

Sean

From my experience Hume's Warbler (6 in the UK - 3 in one day!) they can be quite variable. From very washed out individuals to very bright 'Yellow-browed Warbleresque' individuals. The call although variable at times can IMHO be the only confident way of identifying this species in winter.

 

[cajanuma]

we have same problem this winter with a Hume's at Ventotene island (our Scilly with Linosa island, recently a male Cyprus Warbler !!!!!!!!!) and when we send the call recorded to Magnus Robb and other it sounded effectively odd...

If anyone would like to comment on the call of the bird on Ventotene it is here:

http://www.ebnitalia.it/gallery/lui_hu.htm

scroll down past the first four photos for the recording. As Andrea says it doesn't seem like a very good match for typical humei.

 

[Steve Waite]

If anyone would like to comment on the call of the bird on Ventotene it is here:

http://www.ebnitalia.it/gallery/lui_hu.htm

scroll down past the first four photos for the recording. As Andrea says it doesn't seem like a very good match for typical humei.

Interesting...it certainly looks like a Hume's Warbler, and its call is obviously not a bog standard YBW. I know Hume's have got a variety of different calls (some incredibly Chiffchaff-like!) so I would plump for Hume's.

 

[Lawts]

In terms of plumage characteristics, I've read somewhere recently that Hume's and YbW get closer together in Spring compared to Autumn which doesn't help.

I was with Marcus when it called. Unfortunately it only called once for us, but defo. a "chee" rather than "tswee" type call.

I was a little puzzled by the leg and bill colour, but possibly these are more variable than expressed in the guides.

In the field and in good light, I thought the bird looked greyer than most YbW's I've seen.

 

[skbirder]

To my eye, nothing unusual for Hume's in the photos. Hume's has a surprisingly wide repertoire of calls, one of which is similar to Yellow-browed but inflected downwards rather than upwards and not quite as piercing in tone. Are there any recordings out there of a documented Hume's giving the classic Yellow-browed call?

 

[Keith Bradley]

I'm no expert, infact quite the opposite, and entering a debate usually confined to the experts makes me a tad nervous, but the topic of the Cleveland Hume's made me dig out some photos of the Marsden (Northumberland) bird back in 2006 (not mine I hasten to add). The base of the mandible appears to match, in that it is pale, but contradictive is that the Marsden bird appears to be more greyish rather than greenish, but it's amazing what different light can do to plumage details. If I had to put my money on either of the two I'd say Hume's, even though I did not hear the Cleveland bird call. Otherwise other features, such as the supercilium appear to match.

Good debate none the less, and I think Mark was correct to raise his original concerns.

Keith

 

[macrourus]

of course, the are no doubts the bird is indeed a Hume's W., no question (apart all the pother characters, see also the paler GC centres, always blacker in YBW, the almost absent black spot on secondaries base below the GC, always marked in YBW, the narrow tertials fringing etc.)...and of course I know since long time the variability in Hume's as in ANY bird...

I was just launching the discussion properly to underline as filed guide sometimes are not enough

and about the call, of course is very variable, much more in this case then many other phyllos, but in this Italian bird, some great expert on bird call tell me it was indeed rather interesting and suggested to send it to Asian experts...

Ciao

Andrea