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Spanish birds; Seville and Ronda (1 Viewer)

Kryptos18

Well-known member
Here's some more birds I'd like to confirm for my brother who's in Spain at the moment.

First, not the greatest pictures in the world, but any chance they can confirm Crested vs. Thekla Lark. Taken in Seville.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7353/crestedlark1.jpg
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/6904/crestedlark2.jpg

Next, Booted Eagle?

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7784/bootedeagle1.jpg
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/1525/bootedeagle2.jpg

And finally, taken in Ronda today, Blue Rock-Thrush? Any way these individuals can be sexed based on plumage?

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/2151/rockthrush.jpg
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/1056/rockthrush2.jpg
 
Here's some more birds I'd like to confirm for my brother who's in Spain at the moment.

First, not the greatest pictures in the world, but any chance they can confirm Crested vs. Thekla Lark. Taken in Seville.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7353/crestedlark1.jpg
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/6904/crestedlark2.jpg

Next, Booted Eagle?

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7784/bootedeagle1.jpg
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/1525/bootedeagle2.jpg

And finally, taken in Ronda today, Blue Rock-Thrush? Any way these individuals can be sexed based on plumage?

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/2151/rockthrush.jpg
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/1056/rockthrush2.jpg

Definitely Booted Eagle, typical pale phase bird.

Secondly, both are Blue Rock Thrushes. The blue one the male, the dark brown one the female. I saw these at Ronda in the gorge by the bridge, but they are reasonably common anyway in the area.

Can't say regards the Larks but probably Crested.
 
Definitely Booted Eagle, typical pale phase bird.

Secondly, both are Blue Rock Thrushes. The blue one the male, the dark brown one the female. I saw these at Ronda in the gorge by the bridge, but they are reasonably common anyway in the area.

Can't say regards the Larks but probably Crested.

my thoughts exactly
 
Judging by the stony ground, and the compact dumpy proportions of the lark I would always vote for Thekla

My feelings exactly - it does look typical Thekla habiat (and atypical for Crested). The admittedly very blurry 'full frontal' photo suggests chest streaking more in keeping with this species too. However in the rear view shot the crest looks, to me at least, more 'Crested-like' than Thekla and it has to be admitted that the apparent 'habitat' in the background may not tell the whole story. On shots like these I'm not convinced that you can be 100% certain either way,
 
On shots like these I'm not convinced that you can be 100% certain either way,

I agree entirely John! Here is a bit I wrote on the other forum - my musings on habitat preferences for this pair...I think Crested's shunning of stony soils is reflected in its less robust bill

"Just a couple of thoughts from the perspective of seeing this problematic pair all the time during the last 28 years. (They are also a favourite of mine - endearing, full of character and approachable). In 2009 I spent 7 weeks in the northern Baixo Alentejo on a breeding bird survey. I covered 400 1km squares using systematic and timed techniques on all breeding species. Close to 100 squares were surveyed twice with extra data collection for Greater Short-toed lark, Calandra Lark,Tawny Pipit and Black-eared Wheatear. I paid special attention to Crested and Thekla Larks - both of which were present in many squares with one or the other pretty evenly distributed in the remainder. They were occasionally breeding close to each other with apparent adjacent territories, although in distinct habitats. Detailed notes were taken on the habitats.

Habitat - Of course its not wise to identify birds on habitat alone but it can be an excellent indicator in favour of or another species. I think this pretty reliable in Thekla/Crested ID. They are both some of the most sedentary species in Iberia. My experiences of their habitat preferences are:

Pro Thekla
Rocky or stony soil with stones larger than about 1cm diameter.
Presence of shrubs from about 20cm to over 1m and can include some trees usually oaks (Cork and Holm Oak) or Pines (Stone and Maritime)
Percentage of woody vegetation cover sparse to 100% - usually scrub.
In areas with high cover they can be on sandy soils, fixed dunes and heaths etc.
Some bare ground at least - tracks are sufficient.
Habitats usually covering large or very large areas with low human impact.

Pro Crested
Fine soils or sand
Sand dunes, Dry saltmarsh edges and humanised habitats like farmland, dusty car parks and tracks.
Percentage of woody vegetation cover usually very low and including substantial amount of bare ground. Can be near trees, these often Olive, Figs, Citrus, Carob or Almond.
Often occurring in small niches of suitable habitats.

Hybrids - I know of no documentation of hybridization between Thekla and Crested Lark. I hardly ever hear of this possibility being considered either. Anyone help on this matter?

Personally I find I can normally satisfyingly separate the two with a reasonably good view. Apart from visual characters discussed Theklas are a "compact" slightly rotund creature - in a way between Crested and Woodlark but nearer Crested. The wash of chestnut on the rump is easier to see than the underwing colour - but its worth trying to see. On occasions I wonder about hybrids - maybe at the few areas with an overlap in habitat.

In an Algarve context Thekla occupies more 10X10kms squares than Crested Lark, which is by far the commonest of the two in coastal areas near people. That, I believe can often give the impression of Crested being the most abundant. My impression is that there must be 2 or 3 Theklas for every Crested over the whole Algarve. Theklas are by far the commonest of the two once you get about 5 - 10kms north of the south coast".


Simon

http://algarvebirdman.com/
 
Thanks for all the help guys. Too bad we can't nail down those larks, but maybe a Thekla will present itself more properly next time!
 
I agree entirely John! Here is a bit I wrote on the other forum - my musings on habitat preferences for this pair...I think Crested's shunning of stony soils is reflected in its less robust bill

"Just a couple of thoughts from the perspective of seeing this problematic pair all the time during the last 28 years. (They are also a favourite of mine - endearing, full of character and approachable). In 2009 I spent 7 weeks in the northern Baixo Alentejo on a breeding bird survey. I covered 400 1km squares using systematic and timed techniques on all breeding species. Close to 100 squares were surveyed twice with extra data collection for Greater Short-toed lark, Calandra Lark,Tawny Pipit and Black-eared Wheatear. I paid special attention to Crested and Thekla Larks - both of which were present in many squares with one or the other pretty evenly distributed in the remainder. They were occasionally breeding close to each other with apparent adjacent territories, although in distinct habitats. Detailed notes were taken on the habitats.

Habitat - Of course its not wise to identify birds on habitat alone but it can be an excellent indicator in favour of or another species. I think this pretty reliable in Thekla/Crested ID. They are both some of the most sedentary species in Iberia. My experiences of their habitat preferences are:

Pro Thekla
Rocky or stony soil with stones larger than about 1cm diameter.
Presence of shrubs from about 20cm to over 1m and can include some trees usually oaks (Cork and Holm Oak) or Pines (Stone and Maritime)
Percentage of woody vegetation cover sparse to 100% - usually scrub.
In areas with high cover they can be on sandy soils, fixed dunes and heaths etc.
Some bare ground at least - tracks are sufficient.
Habitats usually covering large or very large areas with low human impact.

Pro Crested
Fine soils or sand
Sand dunes, Dry saltmarsh edges and humanised habitats like farmland, dusty car parks and tracks.
Percentage of woody vegetation cover usually very low and including substantial amount of bare ground. Can be near trees, these often Olive, Figs, Citrus, Carob or Almond.
Often occurring in small niches of suitable habitats.

Hybrids - I know of no documentation of hybridization between Thekla and Crested Lark. I hardly ever hear of this possibility being considered either. Anyone help on this matter?

Personally I find I can normally satisfyingly separate the two with a reasonably good view. Apart from visual characters discussed Theklas are a "compact" slightly rotund creature - in a way between Crested and Woodlark but nearer Crested. The wash of chestnut on the rump is easier to see than the underwing colour - but its worth trying to see. On occasions I wonder about hybrids - maybe at the few areas with an overlap in habitat.

In an Algarve context Thekla occupies more 10X10kms squares than Crested Lark, which is by far the commonest of the two in coastal areas near people. That, I believe can often give the impression of Crested being the most abundant. My impression is that there must be 2 or 3 Theklas for every Crested over the whole Algarve. Theklas are by far the commonest of the two once you get about 5 - 10kms north of the south coast".


Simon

http://algarvebirdman.com/

Thanks Simon, I was hoping you'd post this here!
 
Booted Eagle, and male and female Blue Rock Thrush.

As for the Lark, im 100% for Crested, i've never seen a back view of a Thekla looking as pale as the one in the photo, but see Crested larks daily with this upper colouration.

Although i agree on habitat being a slight indicator of possible species present, how do you account for a Thekla and a Crested sat next to each other on a fence, giving excellent pointers as to identification and separation of species ?
 
Judging by the stony ground, and the compact dumpy proportions of the lark I would always vote for Thekla

i know this may not include birds in spain.
While in Turkey in april i saw 100's of Crested larks in the habitat described for thekla( eg stony ground etc), it may not be the same for spain but i though i would add this in.
MB
Eg in this photo:
2CL.JPG
 
Last edited:
Booted Eagle, and male and female Blue Rock Thrush.

As for the Lark, im 100% for Crested, i've never seen a back view of a Thekla looking as pale as the one in the photo, but see Crested larks daily with this upper colouration.

Although i agree on habitat being a slight indicator of possible species present, how do you account for a Thekla and a Crested sat next to each other on a fence, giving excellent pointers as to identification and separation of species ?

Perhaps I'm over cautious, but I hesitate to judge things like paleness from a photo since over/under exposure and background colour can be a significant factor. As for habitat, like Simon, I tend to find Thekla more often on rockier ground, but for me the key thing is height above sea level. If you're in the mountains and see a lark on rocky ground it's almost certainly going to be a Thekla. In similar habitat (even if its not so extensive & uniform) nearer sea level I still find it's more likely to be Thekla, but there's still a fair chance it might be Crested. In short I'd opine that 'slight' is putting it too strongly and that it remains a useful, if by no means infallible, indicator. I should also confess that I still come across odd birds that have me puzzled; birds with a strongly streaked chest, but 'Crested' bill and others with a 'Crested' plumage, but an oddly shortened bill (some, but not all, are I think imms.) which leave me wondering how, exactly, I'd know a hybrid if I saw one!
 
Although i agree on habitat being a slight indicator of possible species present, how do you account for a Thekla and a Crested sat next to each other on a fence, giving excellent pointers as to identification and separation of species ?

Hi Stephen,

In no way am I saying what I wrote is steadfast outside the areas I mentioned - its just based on fieldwork and fun. The fieldwork I did covered 400 sq kms in the northern Baixo Alentejo and a bit of adjacent Alto Alentejo. This combined with my experiences living in the Algarve and Straits area of southern Spain led me to my thoughts of their habitat preferences. I'm sure it doesn't apply everywhere but its pretty solid for the areas I have covered.

I did say however "They were occasionally breeding close to each other with apparent adjacent territories, although in distinct habitats. Detailed notes were taken on the habitats"

The example you mention of the 2 species next to each other; were they in a place where the land use was different on each side of the fence? - or maybe, it was within Thekla's habitat there was a farm with animals and worn ground and maybe a little (or a lot) of soil cultivation?

In the southern Baixo Alentejo their habitats seem a little more confused - as like much of Extremadura large areas are not particularly stony or vegetated but generally I find Crested occurs more around farmsteads and villages.

Regarding ID, this pair gets easier with time - now I can usually identify these two quickly and at some distance - helped by their calls and song (and dare I say habitat?). However, I always double check them properly when possible!

I thought midland birder's comment also interesting that Crested outside Thekla's range in Turkey lives with lots of rocks.

Anyway - I do see that certain habitats exclude one or the other and I am convinced that these 2 species have quite catholic preferences - be good to know exactly what they were.

Anybody know of anything regarding hybridization of these two?

Simon

http://algarvebirdman.com/
 
Hi Simon,
I know nothing certain about hybridisation, but once caught a very strange looking lark at Cruzinha (Alvor). I caught one clear Thekla there one day - a surprise as it's definitely Crested habitat and all the ones you see/catch are crested. Then another time some years later I caught a juvenile with a wing forumla that matched Thekla, but obviously Crested type bill. Juveniles being something of a pain anyway I gave it a good looking over, but this was all in the days pre-digital photography... Not sure what I eventually concluded (probably just a headache). Like you, though, I think a good view, combined with calls, should let you ID almost all without problems. So I guess hybrids must be pretty rare...
 
Crested Larks have declined considerably in the Czech Republic but used to be found up to 8oo metres on big Scottish style 'whale back' hills on the northern border, with Poland. In the last big breeding survey in 2003 it was reported that the 500 to 1000 pairs left almost all seemed to be nesting on partially constucted or newly constructed housing sites or partially constructed highways. This would seem to chime in with at least one of Simon's habitats ( and thank you very much for sharing such a fascinating piece of work) the dusty car park. I stopped the car within a few metres of one feeding a juv in Strakonice (Cz) supermarket carpark near our village and others have been reported recently in a Prague supermarket carpark where they've nested for a while.
Wish there was a chance of a Thekla's though!
Den
 
Hi Simon,
I know nothing certain about hybridisation, but once caught a very strange looking lark at Cruzinha (Alvor). I caught one clear Thekla there one day - a surprise as it's definitely Crested habitat and all the ones you see/catch are crested. Then another time some years later I caught a juvenile with a wing forumla that matched Thekla, but obviously Crested type bill. Juveniles being something of a pain anyway I gave it a good looking over, but this was all in the days pre-digital photography... Not sure what I eventually concluded (probably just a headache). Like you, though, I think a good view, combined with calls, should let you ID almost all without problems. So I guess hybrids must be pretty rare...

Thanks Den, I agree that if hybrids do exist they are probably pretty rare. I wondered what colour underwing coverts the juv. Thekla/Crested showed. Anyway, it seems nobody has done a study about possible intergrades - or on the distance between the two on a genetic level. Well beyond my scope but I wonder if any Spanish have worked with this?

Crested Larks have declined considerably in the Czech Republic but used to be found up to 8oo metres on big Scottish style 'whale back' hills on the northern border, with Poland. In the last big breeding survey in 2003 it was reported that the 500 to 1000 pairs left almost all seemed to be nesting on partially constucted or newly constructed housing sites or partially constructed highways. This would seem to chime in with at least one of Simon's habitats ( and thank you very much for sharing such a fascinating piece of work) the dusty car park. I stopped the car within a few metres of one feeding a juv in Strakonice (Cz) supermarket carpark near our village and others have been reported recently in a Prague supermarket carpark where they've nested for a while.
Wish there was a chance of a Thekla's though!
Den

Sorry to here about the decline of Crested Lark - we tend to take them for granted here as they are so common (still). I am aware of declines (especially on the limits of their range?) and that the species is now of increased value when assessing natural values for whatever reason. Perhaps opportunities for its conservation in the Czech Republic may include leaving or clearing patches of bare ground at areas where they occur more than planting native shrubs - for example.

Simon
 
Den? Not I! Colin B... Its a long time ago and I can't say for certain. I mostly remember it being rather naked under the wing - being a fresh juv. If my memory serves they were rather whispy greyish white. But don't quote me on that.

PS when are you coming out to TZ?!
 
Den and Colin - sorry for the name mix-up on my last post!

So you are in TZ! Great memories of your days at Cruzinha...let me know when you are back!
 
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