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Roseate or Common Tern? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Muratfaik
- Start date
Thanks friends..,
Your points are right for dougallii subspecies of roseate tern.. since the area is relatively close to eastern palearctic region; what do you think about other subspecies? İnner and outer webs of primaries are dark but not as black as in common tern. Outer tail feathers are black, but what about in other subspecies of roseate?
Your points are right for dougallii subspecies of roseate tern.. since the area is relatively close to eastern palearctic region; what do you think about other subspecies? İnner and outer webs of primaries are dark but not as black as in common tern. Outer tail feathers are black, but what about in other subspecies of roseate?
What it says in the “birds of the world”:
Sterna Dougalli Montagu, 1813, Firth of Clyde, Scotland.
In some respects intermediate between Sterna and Thalasseus. Genetic data indicate that present species, S. hirundinacea, S. hirundo, S. paradisea and S. vittata may form a monophyletic group that also includes Old World S. striata and S. sumatrana, with S. forsteri and S. trudeau possibly also part of this group. May hybridize with S. hirundo and S. paradisaea. Internal taxonomy in need of revision, as subspecific boundaries confused: racial allocation of birds breeding on islets off E Africa requires study, perhaps closer to bangs than to nominate dougalli, although included in latter; arideensis may not be distinct from bangsi; variation of nominate encompasses almost entire range of variation of the species. Has been suggested that arideensis, korustes and bangs be synonymized with gracilis1822, Five subspecies currently recognized.
Sterna Dougalli Montagu, 1813, Firth of Clyde, Scotland.
In some respects intermediate between Sterna and Thalasseus. Genetic data indicate that present species, S. hirundinacea, S. hirundo, S. paradisea and S. vittata may form a monophyletic group that also includes Old World S. striata and S. sumatrana, with S. forsteri and S. trudeau possibly also part of this group. May hybridize with S. hirundo and S. paradisaea. Internal taxonomy in need of revision, as subspecific boundaries confused: racial allocation of birds breeding on islets off E Africa requires study, perhaps closer to bangs than to nominate dougalli, although included in latter; arideensis may not be distinct from bangsi; variation of nominate encompasses almost entire range of variation of the species. Has been suggested that arideensis, korustes and bangs be synonymized with gracilis1822, Five subspecies currently recognized.
Speaking as the only 'people' who can be being referred to here... you have not read my comment with sufficient care.
I'm not clear how this has any bearing on the ID of your bird. In fact the statement 'variation of nominate encompasses almost entire range of variation of the species' supports my advice that you should...
KenM
Well-known member
What I’m suggesting is that…had the birds breast not been highlighted by the sun, it would have looked grey…hope you understand this?
However it’s kissed by the sun…making it look a tad rosey….leaving it open to interpretation, accepting that you’re minds eye might have a completely different take on it!
Thanks for explaining your intent - though this restatement could not possibly have been inferred from your original comment.
I don't think it is 'kissed by the sun' in the sense that I think you mean it. The sun is clearly quite high in the sky, so there should be no low warm sunlight effect. The pinkish glow to the underbody is rather, I guess, created by the OP having increased the photo's saturation (as s/he implies) and thereby inappropriately enhancing some vague pinkishness that just happens to be present in that grey through photographic quirk. Or... common terms are a bit prone to being pinky in full breeding plumage - in fact, now I think about it, I think they are 🤔
KenM
Well-known member
Well a degree of progress has been established in the acknowledgement that, what was once grey….is now warmer, in fact one might say that the future is looking rosier. 🤣👍
Hi Butty,
As far as I understand, you are suggesting this bird to be a variety of common tern. The extent of the black on the beak is way too extensive for a common tern. And also its breast has some pinkish tint (although you suggest gray). So I assume you sugesting this bases on the black on the primaries. However; I am reluctant to accept this, the tone of the black at the wing tips does it comply the with the breeding plumage of common tern? And have you seen any common tern where the black on the beak is this extensive and the red is this deep? The transition of black to red is observed in common tern, but the contrast is different (red part beeing a lot paler).
In the western palearctic region, we know that the extent of the black at the beak changes when you move from northwest to southeast. On the other hand there are also black-beaked, pinkish-breasted roseate tern subspecies (in full breeding plumage). I have not seen all the identified subspecies of common and roseate terns. In that case, is it fair to decide on the species based on only nominate species of common tern? I need more explanations why I should forget about subpecies. Thanks anyway.
So I was right: you really did misread my original comment. Now that 'degree of progress has been established', let's just move on...
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Mark Lew1s
My real name is Mark Lewis
Common tern bills vary and some have much more black on them than others. It's not all that unusual to see them with more black than red (I mean, it's not common, but it happens a fair bit). The pattern of the black on the underside of the primaries, the greyness of the underparts (I'm not really seeing anything pinky here) and the black on the outer tail really rules out Roseate tern and the bill is not a problem for Common.
The words 'variety of' are superfluous, but otherwise, yes: it seems fine for a common tern (well within variation) and doesn't look like a roseate tern (lack of overall whiteness, wrong primary pattern, wrong tail pattern) - so, given also that common tern is hugely more likely, it seems fine to give it that ID. Not sure what else I could say without repeating things I've already said above (about subspecies).
Hi sorry but I'm in the common tern camp too. The tail's wrong for roseate, the bill shape too and the wing colouration. The colour of bill on common varies considerably—by subspecies yes but individually too. The "pink" on the breast looks brownish to me—more like dust or mud. I don't really see a pinkish blush. The colours and contrast are enhanced, but we also need to bear in mind the incident light from the right.
Stonefaction
Dundee Birding....(target 150 in 2024).
Common Tern for me too. There is a lot of shadow on the lower mandible that makes the black seem more extensive than it actually is. The length of the tail streamers seems too short for a Roseate Tern in breeding plumage (though you could argue they might be damaged?). The amount of black along the trailing edge of the wing seems too extensive for Roseate, the aforementioned black along the tail edge is wrong for Roseate and despite the exposure having been tweaked it doesn't seem 'white' enough overall for Roseate. The pink on a Roseate Terns underside is subtle (as on some smaller gulls) whereas on the photo it looks like a similar effect to very heavily applied make-up on someone's face. Also Roseate Terns wing trailing edge is very translucent in this sort of view. The whole 'feel' of the bird is not 'elegant' enough for Roseate (based on those I have seen).
Earnest lad
Well-known member
I concur as to common tern
Thanks friends for your kind responses. It’s proporties closer to common, rather than roseate especially when we consider the nominate subspecies of both terns. I found this article that explains how the ID criteria of afformentioned species have evolved in time.
pianoman
duck and diver, bobolink and weaver
If the picture has been enhanced a little (great picture) it may be tricky to judge the exact colours. But if you saw it in the field, a Roseate is noticeably whiter (looks pure white, even though it isn't), long-tailed, and has a slower, more delicate wingbeat. If seen with common terns the tail length, color and flight difference is easier to see.
