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Adult Herring Gull sp. on the Azores (1 Viewer)

Hi Peter,
I would like to see more images: going by the Adriaens/Mactavish article in Dutch Birding, this does not appear to be a typical 'Newfoundland smithsonianus', but I would by no means state outright that it can't be an American Herring Gull full stop. There doesn't seem to be much of a pale tongue on the inner web of P10, there's no pale 'tongue tip' visible on the inner web of P8, there is a complete black band on P5 but not a classic 'W-shaped' band, but, of course, only 'about 40% of adult 'Newfoundland smithsonianus can be identified with certainty in Europe' per that same article...this could well be one of the 60%, or a smiths from a different population (or just a difficult one of the 40%, and my own inexperience isn't allowing me to nail it from the image), and I would imagine that one would be at least as likely to get smithsonianus as argenteus on the Azores?
Unless I see more detail in the other pics, I'm afraid I'll have to let this one go, though there are birders on here far more qualified to comment than I am, including PA, who I am sure will comment in due course.
Regards,
Harry
 
hi peter, harry,

i asked myself if we can exclude an atlantis yellow-legged gull. primary pattern would be ok (even with a small p4 mark!) just the paleness of mantle and of course the pinkish legs - i think this is the main point (haven't seen pics with adult atlantis with pink legs).

now considering that legs where as pink as they appear and upperparts as pale as they appear in the pic smithsonianus would be the only realistic contender. such a solid p5 subterminal band is rare in argentatus/argenteus (but see e.g. these 2examples: http://www.talk.gull-research.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=226) - however in an adult HG i think i 've never seen a p4 mark! plus p9 mirror is on the small side for either as well.
the tongue and tongue tips of smith mentioned by harry are not possibly visible in these pics because wing is not spread enough. but this kind of extended black in wingtip could sit on a smithsonianus, rather a western than a eastern but variation is large there too.
however, without a series of good pics i doubt one would have the courage to claim a 100% ID for this bird.

cheers,
 
Hi Harry and Lou,
Thanks for that- I haven't got the paper out here with me.
A couple more shots here:
http://peteralfrey.blogspot.com/2010/02/herring-gull-sp-azores.html
Also some more gull action today- a 2nd cycle herring gull bird- looks more like a smiths to me.
http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/
There are many more european gulls out here than american ones- about 400+ Black-heads, 150+ Lesser Black Backs compared to 24 Ringers, a Bonaparte's and two or three American Herring Gull looking birds so I presume 'herring gulls' could be coming from either side.
Cheers
Peter
 
Hi Peter,

interesting adult bird, but difficult to crack...

I would agree with Harry that it is probably not a Newfoundland smiths, at least not a typical one.

However, the bird looks promising in more than one way. More precisely, I am intrigued by the following features:
  • suggestion of black 'bayonet' pattern on both P7 and P8. In adult argenteus it is actually rare to see bayonets on these two primaries (not just on one, even though that is already uncommon), particularly in birds with this much black on the primaries in general (up to P4).
    Percentages of the birds in our sample with a bayonet on at least P7 or P8 were as follows:
    NF smithsonianus 73%
    argenteus 3%
    argentatus 19%
    Eastern Baltic Herring Gull 20%
  • black markings up to P4. This may be found in adult argenteus too, but only rarely (about 2% in our sample). It is, however, quite normal in smithsonianus populations outside of Newfoundland, e.g. on the U.S. East Coast (25% according to Olsen & Larsson) and Ontario (34%, Jonsson & Mactavish 2001). These populations also have generally shorter grey tongues on the outer primaries, and smaller white mirrors (often very small or absent on P9).
  • remnants of extensive head streaking. The photographs are a bit strongly lit in that area, but brown streaking around the eye and on the lower hindneck is still clearly visible. At this time of the year, the vast majority of adult argenteus have lost their winter streaking. Many have been in the colonies over here for a month already, defending their territories!
  • structure: The bird appears to have a rather broad neck and heavy, angular head.
The pattern on P5 is a bit difficult to judge on these photos, I think. It could easily be W-shaped.
More photographs would be welcome, especially in a larger format so we can zoom in on the details. In the meantime, I prefer to remain non-committal :smoke:

I am not convinced by the 2nd-cycle bird though. At first sight, it looks too pale underneath ? Any flight shots of that one ?
 
I like that first 'adult' even better now. Its primary pattern recalls that of the adult bird at Nimmo's Pier, Ireland to some degree. The thin, black shaft streaks on the outer primary coverts also fit American Herring Gull nicely, and may indicate that the bird is actually a 4th-cycle.
Given the location, combined with the characters already mentioned, it is probably safe to assume that it is an American bird, though I would not like to come across it in western Europe...

The new shots of the 2nd-cycle bird have made me change my mind; it looks like another smiths indeed.

As for the 2nd adult bird, that one is really problematic, as it does not have a complete black band on P5. Any shots of or information on its underwing ?
 
Hi,
all I have is a shot showing the inner webs- I didn't get the underwing shot. Photo here:
http://peteralfrey.blogspot.com/
Would you agree that structurally it looks good for a European Herring Gull? I had 400+ Black-heads and 150+ Lesser Black-backs today so I presume argenteus/argentatus are likely out here too.
 
Thanks for that.
In conclusion then, bird one can be assumed to be an American Herring Gull (4th cycle bird) and bird two is more problematic- can we go any further with bird two?
Cheers
Peter
 
Peter Alfrey said:
Thanks for that.
In conclusion then, bird one can be assumed to be an American Herring Gull (4th cycle bird) and bird two is more problematic- can we go any further with bird two?
Cheers
Peter
Click to expand...

Difficult to make out the exact pattern on the underwing of adult 2 but I´m sure Peter can ;)

JanJ
 
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