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Buteo, Islay April, 2006 (2 Viewers)

R

RecoveringScot

Well-known member
The person who took this photo at first didn't know what species they had photographed, and eventually settled for 'Buzzard'. Is it just me or can I see something a little more interesting there (pale head, streaked breast, chestnut belly patch, whiitish underwing etc)?:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lidwit/482940733/

or is it just a pale Common? Regrettably the tail hasn't come out well.

BTW you can get a larger size, and download it and enlarge if need be.

Cheers,
 
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Hmm. The date on the photo is April 28, 2008, not 2006 as I thought (bad eyesight I'm afraid). I presume it should have been 2006 or 2007.

The more I look at this the more the wing-shape seems slightly wrong for CB too.

Cheers,
 
I've put in a common buzzard to show the difference.

There is a "S" shape to the bird's wings, but I can't make out any detail from this image.
 

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pe'rigin said:
I've put in a common buzzard to show the difference.

There is a "S" shape to the bird's wings, but I can't make out any detail from this image.
Click to expand...

you need to take account of the fact that one is gliding (subject) and one soaring (inserted CB), wing shape differences only apply when flight behaviour is ccomparable, that said the size difference alone must be significant ;)

Rob
 
rob stoff said:
the isolated large black carpal patch and dark belly contrasting with a pale head and breast are two features I don't associate with Common Buzzard.

Rob
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Nor me, though pics are always a pain as the bird is nearly always out of focus, badly lit and in an odd position mid-wingstroke. Pity about the tail being unlit. I've seen a pic of an almost identically plumaged RLB from Poland. There's something long about the bird's hand as well. Here's an enlarged version of the subject bird:
 

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I hestitate to disagree with Rob since I usually find myself in complete agreement with his IDs, but in this case I'm afraid I must. Buzzards can, and do, show dark carpals - admittedly the carpal patch here looks more solidly dark than usual, but this may have as much to do with the angle of the light as the reality of the colouration. However, I can't entirely agree that they're as 'isolated' as you suggest, Rob. The underwing coverts look a rather warm brown to me albeit with some buffy feathering - this seems quite wrong for Rough-leg. Another pointer that looks wrong for Rough-legged is the 'belly patch' looks far too warm brown and extends far too far onto the chest for me. The pale head means very little as Buzzard often show this. The shape too looks exactly right for Buzzard. In fact I'd go so far as to suggest that this is a juvenile example,
John
 
John Cantelo said:
Another pointer that looks wrong for Rough-legged is the 'belly patch' looks far too warm brown and extends far too far onto the chest for me. John
Click to expand...

The subject bird's patch and two imm RLB patches (Pics 2,3). One of the RLBs has been reversed for comparison:

Cheers,
 

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just like to make it clear that I don't think this is definitely a RLB, just that I think that has to be a good possibility given the features it shows. Would agree that it has to be a juv whatever it is. I doubt its certainly identifiable from this one pic.

Rob
 
I must admit that if this bird looked in life as it does in the photo I'd have probably thought it was RLB, but as always, pics are tricky. I've been looking at photos of both species tonight, and haven't come across the combination of pale head and breast and dark stomach in CB yet. But I suppose there must be at least one out there.

Cheers,
 
I have not seen this breast pattern in a CB before but from my experience know that CB breasts can be almost pure white or pure brown. I do not think the breast is dark emough for RLB. Yes the carpal patches do look dark but not quite right for RLB. The other feature of RLB is the white tail feathers with the thick black bars. From the photos the tail looks dark as you would expect on a CB though. This may be because the tail is closed and the bright sky above. My opinion on this is that it is a CB.
 
Ade George said:
I have not seen this breast pattern in a CB before but from my experience know that CB breasts can be almost pure white or pure brown. I do not think the breast is dark emough for RLB. Yes the carpal patches do look dark but not quite right for RLB. The other feature of RLB is the white tail feathers with the thick black bars. From the photos the tail looks dark as you would expect on a CB though. This may be because the tail is closed and the bright sky above. My opinion on this is that it is a CB.
Click to expand...

its the contrast between the breast and belly that matters not the appearance of either in isolation. Not sure what you mean by the breast not being dark enough for RLB as that is characterised by being pale breasted (contrasting with a dark belly). The tail pattern you describe applies only to adults, this is a juvenile (trailing edge of wing diffuse) which has a dull and diffuse dark tail tip only. Common Buzzards are variable yes, there are however fixed patterns of variability, they do not mix pale and dark features on the same bird, individuals that actually look very like RLB in plumage are very rare, some CB show some features suggestive of RLB but are normally easily separated by reference to the whole bird.

Rob
 
It's not the best photo, but I think the head and body markings are within the range for Common Buzzard, and the lesser coverts in particular look too dark for RLB. The tail isn't well lit, but I can't see any hint of a dark band.

It's also an unusual location for a RLB - few penetrate this far west and the date is quite late as well. On the other hand the location and date are entirely typical for CB.
 
PaulD said:
It's not the best photo, but I think the head and body markings are within the range for Common Buzzard, and the lesser coverts in particular look too dark for RLB. The tail isn't well lit, but I can't see any hint of a dark band.

It's also an unusual location for a RLB - few penetrate this far west and the date is quite late as well. On the other hand the location and date are entirely typical for CB.
Click to expand...

They may be individually within the range. It's the combination of pale head and complete dark belly patch in CB that is singular, and of which I still haven't found a single other photo example. despite lots of searching.

On enlargement, this photo is affected by blotchy artefacts in shadowed areas which may be down to the camera. If the left wing is like the right the coverts don't strike me as particularly off the dial for RLB. The bird also seems to lack prominent dark under-secondaries, which typify juv/imm CB.

We've recently had RLB in June in Scotland, and they regularly turn up in Galloway, not much distant from Islay. April isn't particularly spring-like often up here either.

However, I'm still not 100 percent on this. I'd love a Scandinavian poster to chip in. They'll know RLB much better than most of us. If it is a CB it's a darn funny-looking one.

Cheers,
 
Hi RecoveringScot,

Just on a point of detail.
I'm not in a position to say that RLB's don't turn up regularly in Galloway but I'm just looking at the Dumfries and Galloway Region Bird Report No 17. It notes that RLB was historically regarded as a rare winter visitor in 19th and 20th centuries and, at present a rare vagrant. Recent records were 1 in 2002, 2 in 2003 with no records in 2004 and 2005. Not all of these records were confirmed or submitted to SRBC. I know not all sightings are reported but...

cheers
Gordon
 
i don't think anyone's suggesting that a RLB on Islay wouldn't be a notable rarity but much much stranger things have happened

Rob
 
Gordon said:
Hi RecoveringScot,

Just on a point of detail.
I'm not in a position to say that RLB's don't turn up regularly in Galloway but I'm just looking at the Dumfries and Galloway Region Bird Report No 17. It notes that RLB was historically regarded as a rare winter visitor in 19th and 20th centuries and, at present a rare vagrant. Recent records were 1 in 2002, 2 in 2003 with no records in 2004 and 2005. Not all of these records were confirmed or submitted to SRBC. I know not all sightings are reported but...

cheers
Gordon
Click to expand...

Cheers, Gordon. I should have said occasionally. Thanks for putting me right. But they still do occur there, in much the same patchy way as NE Scotland.

Cheers,
 
RecoveringScot said:
They may be individually within the range. It's the combination of pale head and complete dark belly patch in CB that is singular, and of which I still haven't found a single other photo example. despite lots of searching.

On enlargement, this photo is affected by blotchy artefacts in shadowed areas which may be down to the camera. If the left wing is like the right the coverts don't strike me as particularly off the dial for RLB. The bird also seems to lack prominent dark under-secondaries, which typify juv/imm CB.

We've recently had RLB in June in Scotland, and they regularly turn up in Galloway, not much distant from Islay. April isn't particularly spring-like often up here either.

However, I'm still not 100 percent on this. I'd love a Scandinavian poster to chip in. They'll know RLB much better than most of us. If it is a CB it's a darn funny-looking one.

Cheers,
Click to expand...

Thanks for the comments. I don't think the photo is good enough to be sure that this bird has a complete dark belly patch - I think it might look a bit less complete (less dense, if you know what I mean) in real life.

However I do think you can see dark lesser coverts, pale median coverts and dark greater coverts - the contrast is clearly there, it isn't down to camera artifacts.

I think we can both agree that on location Common Buzzard is far more likely. Rough-leg is certainly possible, but my 1992 copy of Malcolm Ogilvie's book notes them as less than annual on Islay (ie not regular).

Like you I'd welcome comment from someone who is more familiar with RLB than us Brits.
 
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