[Hotspur]

Apparently there is a vagrant ruddy duck on flores - is this the first 'wild' record for the wp?

[Steve Lister]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Apparently there is a vagrant ruddy duck on flores - is this the first 'wild' record for the wp?

Vagrant from where though?

[Allen S. Moore]

Originally Posted by Steve Lister

Vagrant from where though?

Vagrant from North America, of course. There have been a lot of vagrant birds of many species from there in the Azores in Octobers past.

[garry1366]

Originally Posted by Allen S. Moore

Vagrant from North America, of course. There have been a lot of vagrant birds of many species from there in the Azores in Octobers past.

And there'also been lots of stuff from the east such as Citrine Wagtail and Red throated Pipit this year alone. Just cos it's nearer to America doesn't mean that's where it came from which is what Steve was hinting at.

G

[Xenospiza]

Examination of its DNA could be helpful to find out its origins, because the DNA of the introduced European population is well known. Of course you'd have to catch/shoot it first...

Ruddy Duck has been seen on Bermuda, so some of them do fly some way over the Atlantic.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by garry1366

And there'also been lots of stuff from the east such as Citrine Wagtail and Red throated Pipit this year alone. Just cos it's nearer to America doesn't mean that's where it came from which is what Steve was hinting at.

G

with the feral population now in the hundreds or low thousands it would seem reasonable to expect this to be an american bird although strange dispersal post breeding due to a low pop density cant be ruled out i guess

[Dog]

I was on Stronsay-Orkney in late Sept 98 & found a Ruddy Duck which I thought could have been good candidate for been a wild bird.

Mike.

[Andrew]

Does this present a different argument for shooting them?

[lewis20126]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Does this present a different argument for shooting them?

Defra will be hoping there aren't any ringing recoveries of American birds this side of the pond!

a

[Farnboro John]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Does this present a different argument for shooting them?

It may be different, it ain't new! While the shooters were at it they could eliminate feral Wood Ducks - now there's a bird I'd love to see on Tresco Great Pool now the Porthloo weirdos have been disposed of.....

John

[ColinD]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Does this present a different argument for shooting them?

Interesting question though isn't it? I mean if vagrant Ruddy Ducks started breeding over here, where would that leave the culling programme?

[Fat Paul Scholes]

Originally Posted by ColinD

Interesting question though isn't it? I mean if vagrant Ruddy Ducks started breeding over here, where would that leave the culling programme?

Dead in the water?

[StonedCurlew]

If there was a ringing recovery of a ruddy duck in the UK I suspect this would make no difference whatsoever to the cull.

[PaulD]

If Ruddy Ducks colonised Britain naturally then I can't see any reason why they should be treated differently from any other natural coloniser.

However it is probably an academic question as there is no sign of natural colonisation.

[StonedCurlew]

Absolutely agree, but if a ruddy duck turns up as a vagrant in the UK this does not mean that natural colonisation would have been likely (no other vagrant US ducks have established breeding populations in the UK). This is why I do not think proof they they can turn up as a vagrant would stop Defra from culling the naturalised population.

[The Moore-hen]

Originally Posted by StonedCurlew

If there was a ringing recovery of a ruddy duck in the UK I suspect this would make no difference whatsoever to the cull.

If there was a ringed recovery of a wild yank Ruddy Duck in the UK it would surely come from a dead bird shot by Defra 'marksman'...and i doubt their bosses would be too bothered if they 'accidentely' dropped said ring to the bottom of the reservoir...

[Xenospiza]

Originally Posted by ColinD

Interesting question though isn't it? I mean if vagrant Ruddy Ducks started breeding over here, where would that leave the culling programme?

Show me all the breeding Ring-necked Ducks, Blue-winged Teal and Lesser Scaups first! Some of these (esp. Ring-necked Ducks) have arrived in flocks and still did not manage to settle.
Of course, there has been the odd hybrid (Ring-necked × Tufted, Am. Black × Mallard, Blue-winged Teal × Shoveler, Am. × Euras. Wigeon). The odd hybrid progeny of a vagrant Ruddy Duck would not be a problem, but that can't be compared to the possible onslaught (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/wildlife_d...7_392_MVIS.pdf) started from misguided wildfowl collectors.

[ColinD]

Originally Posted by Xenospiza

Show me all the breeding Ring-necked Ducks, Blue-winged Teal and Lesser Scaups first! Some of these (esp. Ring-necked Ducks) have arrived in flocks and still did not manage to settle.
Of course, there has been the odd hybrid (Ring-necked × Tufted, Am. Black × Mallard, Blue-winged Teal × Shoveler, Am. × Euras. Wigeon). The odd hybrid progeny of a vagrant Ruddy Duck would not be a problem, but that can't be compared to the possible onslaught (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/wildlife_d...7_392_MVIS.pdf) started from misguided wildfowl collectors.

It was only a hypothetical question. I don't expect them to start breeding, and even if they did I don't expect it would stop the cull.

But just to continue this game, perhaps Ruddy Ducks are in a slightly different position to Ring-necked Ducks etc., because as a species they have more than proven that they can live in the wild in Britain and multiply, even if they did originate from escaped birds, whereas the other species you mention have not.

Is there any evidence to suggest that a vagrant Ruddy Duck has less chance of breeding the UK than a bird which originates from "released" stock?

[Xenospiza]

Originally Posted by ColinD

Is there any evidence to suggest that a vagrant Ruddy Duck has less chance of breeding the UK than a bird which originates from "released" stock?

I'll happily hypothesise along.
What sets apart Greater Canada - , Egyptian - and Greylag Geese from Pink-footed and Brent? (Barnacle Goose is a bit of an odd one – I guess the British breeding birds are feral too, but I'm not so sure about the Dutch breeders).
I guess a vagrant will have a greater urge to migrate (back) than a released bird, which will mean the released bird is more likely to get established.
The offspring may be migratory again (as was shown by the Dutch White Storks) – and there you have the Ruddy conundrum!

[ColinD]

Originally Posted by Xenospiza

I'll happily hypothesise along.
What sets apart Greater Canada - , Egyptian - and Greylag Geese from Pink-footed and Brent? (Barnacle Goose is a bit of an odd one – I guess the British breeding birds are feral too, but I'm not so sure about the Dutch breeders).
I guess a vagrant will have a greater urge to migrate (back) than a released bird, which will mean the released bird is more likely to get established.
The offspring may be migratory again (as was shown by the Dutch White Storks) – and there you have the Ruddy conundrum!

Of course the interesting thing about wildfowl is that they don't get the urge to migrate in the same way that passerines do. Young passerines know when it is time to migrate and know which direction to travel, and they do it under their own steam usually alone, guided by stars, coastline, magnetic fields etc.

Wildfowl migrate in family groups and are taught how to migrate and where to go by their parents. This is why feral birds don't migrate, even when they meet wild flocks on wintering grounds (ok, I know that there are examples of feral birds moving to Iceland with Pink-feet etc., and I also realise that there are some local movements by feral geese, but these are the exceptions.).

However, none of this answers the hypothetical question, IF vagrant Ruddy Ducks did start breeding in the UK, where would that leave the cull?

[David Ball]

One thing no-one seems to have pointed out is that, while a vagrant Ring-necked Duck, American Wigeon or Blue-winged Teal has to find another member of the same species to breed with (rather thin on the ground, even for the most regular vagrants), or form a hybrid pair with a closely related Western Pal species, a hypothetical wild vagrant Ruddy Duck can quite happily breed with Ruddy Ducks from the released population once it makes it to Britain (and is obviously far more likely to do so than to meet another transatlantic arrival).

However, if the released population hadn't existed, it wouldn't have been able to do so, and would have to have met up with another, vanishingly scarce vagrant Ruddy Duck (or equally scarce vagrant/escaped White-headed Duck or other Oxyura sp.), all much rarer than the three regular Yank ducks referred to above. As a result, a vagrant Ruddy Duck would almost certainly only produce any offspring because the resident released population was already present, and therefore such offspring would presumably have the same status as the released parent and not the wild parent.

Would it however be a technical offence to shoot a wild vagrant Ruddy Duck? Presumably the odd American Wigeon might cop it at the hands of wildfowlers not well-versed in the niceties of axillary patterning. Is that an offence?

[Popeye]

Wildfowlers seem to get away with the excuse of shooting the wrong species by accident. I witnessed a local wildfowler throwing 2 dead Redshank back into the river just after the tide was on the turn once (? to get rid of the evidence). I suppose this technique is their training manual.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by Xenospiza

I'll happily hypothesise along.
What sets apart Greater Canada - , Egyptian - and Greylag Geese from Pink-footed and Brent? (Barnacle Goose is a bit of an odd one – I guess the British breeding birds are feral too, but I'm not so sure about the Dutch breeders).
I guess a vagrant will have a greater urge to migrate (back) than a released bird, which will mean the released bird is more likely to get established.
The offspring may be migratory again (as was shown by the Dutch White Storks) – and there you have the Ruddy conundrum!

Talking about Canada Geese. I seem to remember on at least two occasions there have been this species with North American rings which were found in Scotland. A low number I admit but proof that this sp gets over the pond and did not come from a collection.

[Xenospiza]

Originally Posted by Colin

Talking about Canada Geese. I seem to remember on at least two occasions there have been this species with North American rings which were found in Scotland. A low number I admit but proof that this sp gets over the pond and did not come from a collection.

If I'm not mistaken these were small forms, not the usual duck pond Greater Canada Geese.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by Xenospiza

If I'm not mistaken these were small forms, not the usual duck pond Greater Canada Geese.

Could well have been - really struggling with the old memory.