• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Ivory-billed Woodpecker (formerly updates) (2 Viewers)

Tim Allwood said:
I never claimed or stated to have 'photographed woodpeckers'.Tim

To borrow a phrase from you - I can't be bothered to 'trawl' through all of the back pages of this thread to prove your statement wrong. But I remember you stating that the other campephilus woodpeckers you have seen were 'easy to photograph'. Thus your claim that the IBWO should also be 'easy' to photograph.
 
Russ Jones said:
latest audio? where can I listen to it?

Russ

Edit: nevermind, i found it.


Some of the calls in the latest audio, particularly the second last one, sound like geese to me.

Some calls are much deeper than others - has this been previously documented for IBWO?

Almost all the calls on that recording have a very gentle 'attack', that is there is not a very sharp beginning to the sound. Is this consistent with previous IBWO calls?

Cheers,
 
timeshadowed said:
Yes, if the sighting was in my home state of MN. The only other possibility is the golden eagle, which is RARE in MN. No hawk is that big! The bald eagle is not rare anymore here in MN. However, I would not claim to have seen an adult bald eagle without viewing either the white head or white tail or both.

PS - I've been veiwing bald eagles soaring for about 50 yrs now - even when they were very, very rare in the lower states due to DDT. So that kinda makes the issue of claiming it if I had never seen one moot.

That's kind of my point, if you have a long history of observing the bird, then an observation without seeing one of the key characters (white on the head & tail) is fair enough. If someone who hadn't been viewing bald eagles for 50 years was in a similar situation, perhaps in an area where golden eagles are more common, perhaps there would be questions (especially if they called it an adult).
Nobody has a long history of observing the ivory bill-perhaps because it never seems to stay in one place for more than a millisecond...
 
Imaginos said:
That's kind of my point, if you have a long history of observing the bird, then an observation without seeing one of the key characters (white on the head & tail) is fair enough. If someone who hadn't been viewing bald eagles for 50 years was in a similar situation, perhaps in an area where golden eagles are more common, perhaps there would be questions (especially if they called it an adult).
Nobody has a long history of observing the ivory bill-perhaps because it never seems to stay in one place for more than a millisecond...


You are now changing your equation. You asked ME if I would have marked it if it were MY first time. And MY answer was yes, because I live in MN. Period. To say it was not, is to claim seeing a rare bird in MN. That was MY point.

Your above quote now adds 'perhaps in an area where golden eagles are more common'. That was NOT part of your original question to me. That would have changed my answer to 'no', however, I still would not have claimed that it was a golden eagle.

The skeptics ARE claiming that people are seeing PIWO, when all the field marks of a PIWO are not being seen either, and that was also MY point - ie lots of white on the face.

Compare the bill sizes of the PIWO and the IBWO here:
http://www.fishcrow.com/casts_large.jpg

People are reporting a 'large bill' but not claiming a 'white bill'. How can the PIWO bill in the above link be called 'large'? That is point number three. The bald eagles white head and tail CAN appear black if the lighting is right, just as a 'large bill' may not look 'white' to the observer if the lighting is also just right. Most, if not all, that are reporting having seen a IBWO while out searching for one are very familiar with the PIWO. Therefore they are also familiar with the size of the bill of the PIWO. That is point number four. A 'large bill' in the report does not mean the 'small bill' of the PIWO.

Point number five:
The skeptics MUST claim it was either a PIWO, a crow, a raven, a duck, or whatever because their starting point is that the IBWO is extinct. Period. The so-called 'believers' starting point is that the IBWO may still exist somewhere out in the swamps. Therefore, the 'believers' can be more open-minded about what they are seeing. They don't HAVE to make a square peg fit the round hole. That is why you are reading the word 'possible' in a lot of reports.

Now back to the bald eagle observation without the white head or tail in MN. I would report it as 'a possible' bald eagle (IBWO), not a golden eagle (PIWO).
 
timeshadowed said:
You are now changing your equation. You asked ME if I would have marked it if it were MY first time. And MY answer was yes, because I live in MN. Period. To say it was not, is to claim seeing a rare bird in MN. That was MY point.

Your above quote now adds 'perhaps in an area where golden eagles are more common'. That was NOT part of your original question to me. That would have changed my answer to 'no', however, I still would not have claimed that it was a golden eagle.

Forgive me for not knowing the precise distribution of large raptors in North America, not my strong point admittedly. Thus clarifying my position in the above post to bring a bald eagle/golden eagle analogy more into line with the IBWO/PIWO/crow/duck/whatever else

timeshadowed said:
The skeptics ARE claiming that people are seeing PIWO, when all the field marks of a PIWO are not being seen either, and that was also MY point - ie lots of white on the face.

Compare the bill sizes of the PIWO and the IBWO here:
http://www.fishcrow.com/casts_large.jpg

People are reporting a 'large bill' but not claiming a 'white bill'. How can the PIWO bill in the above link be called 'large'?
I'm not sure that these casts can really tell us much in isolation can they? IBWO is/was a larger bird, thus would have a larger bill, the proportions do not look that much different, which with a poor view when you really want to see one bird over another could be confused?
timeshadowed said:
That is point number three. The bald eagles white head and tail CAN appear black if the lighting is right, just as a 'large bill' may not look 'white' to the observer if the lighting is also just right. Most, if not all, that are reporting having seen a IBWO while out searching for one are very familiar with the PIWO. Therefore they are also familiar with the size of the bill of the PIWO. That is point number four. A 'large bill' in the report does not mean the 'small bill' of the PIWO.

But surely with all these sightings someone must have noticed a large white bill, are the woods so dark that the lighting will always make a white bill look dark?

timeshadowed said:
Point number five:
The skeptics MUST claim it was either a PIWO, a crow, a raven, a duck, or whatever because their starting point is that the IBWO is extinct. Period. The so-called 'believers' starting point is that the IBWO may still exist somewhere out in the swamps. Therefore, the 'believers' can be more open-minded about what they are seeing. They don't HAVE to make a square peg fit the round hole. That is why you are reading the word 'possible' in a lot of reports.
Are the 'believers' really more open minded about what they are seeing? Most are sightings by people who are actively out looking for IBWO, most will have invested a lot of time and money personally into proving the existence of a bird long thought extinct. Surely that will have an effect on what they choose to see/ignore in any potential sightings.
An analogy: Recently I caught a series of 'funny' 7-spot ladybirds, they didn't look quite right for 7-spot so I keyed them out & with a bit of 'forcing' managed to convince myself they were likely to be Scarce 7-spot (a rare species in the UK associated with wood ants). The characters exhibited were just as wrong for Scarce 7-spot as they were for the common variety, but I wanted them to be Scarce, so I saw the features I wanted to see and disregarded the features that were telling me they were the common species. This was with insects under the microscope, surely similar thought processes could go through the mind of someone who glimpses a 'possible' IBWO?

timeshadowed said:
Now back to the bald eagle observation without the white head or tail in MN. I would report it as 'a possible' bald eagle (IBWO), not a golden eagle (PIWO).
And potentially misidentify a rare species? (This last comment is tongue in cheek, and should be ignored ;) )
 
Transcript of Gallagher/Harrison descriptions

humminbird said:
Better have a look at the notes again. If what they wrote is what they saw then the white WAS in the primaries!

Here's my transcription of the notes on figure S1 from the supplement to the 2005 Science paper. I've tried to transcribe the hand-written notes as best I can from the PDF, including original spellings and punctuation, but I could have made some errors.

Caption
Fig. S1. Sketches from field notes of T. Gallagher (A) and B. Harrison (B) that depict the pattern of white and black they noted on the wings and back of the large woodpecker they observed together in the Cache River National Wildlife Refuge, Arkansas, on 27 February 2004. Sketches were made independently of one another.

Transcription of notes on sketches
Tim Gallagher (figure 3A):
My entire focus was on the white at the trailing edge of the wing at the time of best view. Did not see any red. Do not have a firm impression of bill shape or its color.
Black areas are jet black (arrow pointing at leading edge of wing.)
White is dazzling snow white in the sunlight.


Bobby Harrison (figure 3B):
Against a brilliant black-black (?) of upper body and leading edge of of wing and most primaries. I was captivated by the amount of white on the wings an its Brilliance set against such a brilliant black. Because my eyes were drawn to the contrast of black and white I have no recollection of head or tail feathers.
Back (Top of Bird)
Head (sketch) Tail
White in Secondaries and appeared to be in some of Primaries.


I don't see that Gallagher mentioned the primaries. Harrison does, saying the white extended into "some" primaries, but that most of them were black, if I read that correctly. I apologize for being imprecise previously. The sketches are consistent with about the first 2-3 primaries being white, but I feel they just do not match the one photograph I've seen of an IBWO in flight and the various illustrations--in those the white extends out into the longest primaries at the end of the wing. It is quite striking and I just do not see that in Gallagher and Harrison's sketches.

There are just so many things they did not record in that sighting, most notable among them the broad white stripes on the back, and Harrison notes they were looking at the back of the bird. They should have been able to see the broad white stripes, but they did not note them. That, combined with the wing pattern they sketched and the failure to note any other details such as body and tail shape, make this a very sketchy sighting. I had initially been very convinced by it, but it does not hold up well to close examination. (IMHO of course!)

And again, I just see no details in those notes to indicate how they knew the bird was a woodpecker. As I've stated previously, I feel woodpeckers are easy to recognize when perched, but more problematic when flying. I usually recognize them by their undulating flight pattern, but the IBWO was said not to have this--it flew like a duck. People were said to mistake the IBWO for a Pintail. I just don't see anything in the descriptions or sketches to indicate that this was not some sort of waterfowl. The wing patteren of the Hooded Merganser and the White-winged Scoter are close to the pattern shown in the sketches. How did they exclude these? Here we do have, apparently, the complete notes taken by Gallagher and Harrison at the time, and they are silent.
 
timeshadowed said:
To borrow a phrase from you - I can't be bothered to 'trawl' through all of the back pages of this thread to prove your statement wrong. But I remember you stating that the other campephilus woodpeckers you have seen were 'easy to photograph'. Thus your claim that the IBWO should also be 'easy' to photograph.

that's total bollocks, love

I have NEVER photogrpahed a campephilus. I don't bird forest and jungle with a camera. Never claimed to have taken a pic of campehilus, here or anywhere, now or ever.

Tim
 
Last edited:
seeing as moving toward kents and knocks, getting the iPod out and taping one in, watching large areas of canopy for flyovers etc are beyond these 'expert' how about this...

when we used to look for Golden Orioles we'd position ourselves on a river edge and wait for the birds to cross. Would take a while at times but you'd score 90% of the time. If you missed, return the next day. Why not postion yourself on the Chockfulla**** river at 200m intervals for a dayorthree and keep scanning. If the birds are there they will fly over the river. Honest. If they aint developed hydrophobia.

river edges are great places to see elusive species. Even without a tape.

sitting and waiting on trails in dense forest will also reveal extremely skulky birds like pittas, thrushes, wren-babblers, shortwings. Even without a tape.

I presume they are trying these kind of things. If birds are in the vicinity in a population - even very small (as they must be given the amount of calls and knocks, right?), they will be seen.
 
Tim Allwood said:
seeing as moving toward kents and knocks, getting the iPod out and taping one in, watching large areas of canopy for flyovers etc are beyond these 'expert' how about this...

when we used to look for Golden Orioles we'd position ourselves on a river edge and wait for the birds to cross. Would take a while at times but you'd score 90% of the time. If you missed, return the next day. Why not postion yourself on the Chockfulla**** river at 200m intervals for a dayorthree and keep scanning. If the birds are there they will fly over the river. Honest. If they aint developed hydrophobia.

river edges are great places to see elusive species. Even without a tape.

sitting and waiting on trails in dense forest will also reveal extremely skulky birds like pittas, thrushes, wren-babblers, shortwings. Even without a tape.

I presume they are trying these kind of things. If birds are in the vicinity in a population - even very small (as they must be given the amount of calls and knocks, right?), they will be seen.

Word of advice Tim - read what is being done on these searches and where the birds are being seen , how, before you embarass yourself more. Sitting and watching - "stakeout" - whatever you want to call it is being done and has thus far been one of the more productive tactics. If I am not mistaken a friend of yours from earlier in the thread (who you among others managed to drive off) suggested this, as have a couple of others who contribute only sparingly because of the reception they received.
 
Tim Allwood said:
I don't bird forest and jungle with a camera.

Now we get an admission. Exactly what I have been saying almost every time he criticizes the photography skills of those who DO bird forest swamps with cameras. How the He** does he know what is "easy" if he has never tried it?
 
humminbird said:
Word of advice Tim - read what is being done on these searches and where the birds are being seen , how, before you embarass yourself more. Sitting and watching - "stakeout" - whatever you want to call it is being done and has thus far been one of the more productive tactics. If I am not mistaken a friend of yours from earlier in the thread (who you among others managed to drive off) suggested this, as have a couple of others who contribute only sparingly because of the reception they received.

I presumed they were staking out as i mentioned. I've been birding all morning and don't have time to subject myself to some of the nonsense on the search blogs. Just have to keep embarrassing myself.

howabout taping when a bird is detected? - seems extremely sensible to me. Scanning the river? A seven day dawn to dusk scan of the river in the 'Hot Zone' would surey reveal the bird, allow a reasonable view and if they're in pairs all the better.

At least folks who don't like it here can post on the searchers' blog - we sceptics can't.
 
humminbird said:
Word of advice Tim - read what is being done on these searches

He doesn't read the thread - and THAT is the main problem I have with his comments to this thread. He pops in here and probably reads one or two posts and comments like he's read them ALL. This is not the first time he's been caught 'red-handed' with this type of commenting.

Thus his comments should usually be ignored because he is just blowing 'hot-air' around!
 
timeshadowed said:
He doesn't read the thread - and THAT is the main problem I have with his comments to this thread. He pops in here and probably reads one or two posts and comments like he's read them ALL. This is not the first time he's been caught 'red-handed' with this type of commenting.

Thus his comments should usually be ignored because he is just blowing 'hot-air' around!

spot on B :) I'm not that precious as half the pretend serious analysts that pop up here, are.

now howabout you address the comments saying I've photographed Campephilus woodpeckers? I don't read half this rubbish, true. You read it all and still you end up accusing me of lying...

I mean, it's as if there's nothing much else to discuss... :-O

Tim
 
Now we have the daily character assassination out of the way can anyone tell me why full reports are apparently not released to the public?
 
humminbird said:
Now we get an admission. Exactly what I have been saying almost every time he criticizes the photography skills of those who DO bird forest swamps with cameras. How the He** does he know what is "easy" if he has never tried it?

er, i have lots of friends who do take their cameras and photograph forest, even swamp forest birds. A couple are BirdQuest leaders and are even able to take these pics with several people in their parties. The preponderance on the net these days of excellent photgraphs of mega skulkers should inform even the most lay-birder that it is possible to take pics of these kinds of birds, let alone large woodpeckers. Google for images of campephilus woodpeckers. Try the world rarities page on Surfbirds when it's back online. Or WorldTwitch. Or buy a few HBWs. Or check James Eaton's site.

Tim
 
Warning! This thread is more than 6 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top